A Song of Fire and Ice Posible Spoiler read at your own risk [Archive]

magatsu17

17th August 2001, 14:56

I've read all three books in this series and I like it alot, But one thing pisses me off about it. Is any thing good going to happen to these characters that I've grown to love. First Ned Stark Dies, Than they all get seperated, Arya has been on the run since the First book I think and when ever it looks like some thing good gonna finally happen to her it just makes her situation worse, and this hasn't just happened once but 4 or 5 times. every time you think she's finally gonna be save it just get's worse and it's pissing me off. Not to mention Robb being killed and Sansa being framed for murder. Cat almost getting killed. Jon Snow is the only one in a better position now than at the start of the series, and just when you finally get to like Jamie Lannister a little bit they cut off his hand. Even though this series has been better written than the wheel of time lately it still pisses me off more

Ulk

17th August 2001, 17:30

Martin rocks ass. he's a far better writer than Jordan, because stuff actually happens in his books. dude, dont you get a little tired of absolutely knowing none of the characters are going to die in WOT, until maybe the last battle? its hard to get excited when Rand is in a conundrum, cos you know he's gonna pull thru and kick ass. OH, and martin's characters have actually developed, unlike jordans. anyway, thats enough wot bashing, cos i do like WOT despite its foibles.

GWINNA

17th August 2001, 23:02

Originally posted by Ulk
Martin rocks ass. he's a far better writer than Jordan, because stuff actually happens in his books. dude, dont you get a little tired of absolutely knowing none of the characters are going to die in WOT, until maybe the last battle? its hard to get excited when Rand is in a conundrum, cos you know he's gonna pull thru and kick ass. OH, and martin's characters have actually developed, unlike jordans. anyway, thats enough wot bashing, cos i do like WOT despite its foibles.
Charecters that have died in Wot off The top of my head:
several Maidens of the Spear, including some who were realy developed as charrecters. They weren't just background.
A few Asha'man that we got to know.
Perrin's entire family.
Numerous Forsaken
Thom's lover
a bunch of Aes Sedia
The Green Man
A thin Inn Keeper
Mat
Lews Therin
Moraine(maybe)
Asmodean
Ingtar
a few Shienarians
Couldrin
One of Mat's most liked generals
See the cast is so large it just seems that no one dies.
I also think the Charecters have developed alot since the beginning.
Rand was an inocent and ignorant and happy Farmer in love with Eugwene.
Rand is now a deadly warrior who is disallusioned and hates his life and faces the constant reminder of a fate in which he dies, has several scars and tatooes. Rules a good chunk of the world. A powerfull channeler. No longer loves Eugwene and is instead in love with three women and has had sex with all of them. He is also throughly pissed most of the time.
That was just one example. Now the problem is that in the last few books very little time has passed. little more than a few weeks in the last two books. People just don't change that much in that much time. Besides I think they have had too much happend in the books that's why it is such a short time frame. I know you all didn't like the 8th book but if you read it carefully it gets better and you'll find it is very important and exciting in what happens.

Ulk

18th August 2001, 15:16

LOL, i knew you'd have something to say about that GWINNA, hehe. You make good points, its just that i meant the actual main characters. Like, you never saw a POV from say, Ingtar. but i see what you mean. I still say martin's better than jordan tho :p :D

magatsu17

18th August 2001, 18:11

Hey I know bad thing happpen that's not my problem, it's just that only bad things happen. But when is something good gonna happen, I mean Arya has been in this super fucked up situation for at least 2 books, it's still the same situation that doesn't sound like anythings happening to me.

but More happened it the first three books of the wheel of time than have happened in this series. Only in this one the bad guys always win. And that pisses me off.

GWINNA

18th August 2001, 20:29

I just realy like The Wheel OF TIme in case you hadn't noticed. :p
besides if you kill off all the main charecters it tends to drag down the story. As for main Charecters that have died I can name three, but there I go agian:p

Jacob

20th August 2001, 16:32

Originally posted by magatsu17
I've read all three books in this series and I like it

The song of ice and fire is a GREAT series! Is it greater than WOT? I don't think so, even though I can understand how some have come to think so lately. The writing of WOT has deteriorated abit lately (Much too many exclamation marks etc!!!). Reading both series the first time is both great. What speaks in WOT's advantage is that I look forward to reading about what's going to happen to the charecters so much more. I simply LIKE the WOT charecters so much better. And the way WOT is written also encourage me to re-read the books, to go back to those favorit moments and also to read and find things that I missed the first time around.

But that being said, I really DO like the writing style of George R.R. Martin in HIS books. I love the writing style that RJ has for WOT, but I don't want other books to use the same, it's not theirs. In a Song of Ice and Fire, good people die, bad people sometimes do very well indeed. Martin employes abit of the "Life's a bitch and then you die" philosophy. It can be annoying as hell reading. But also incredibly enjoyable to read!

In a way it's easy to feel that Martin writes more realisticly than Jordan. In Real life, bad people often win :O Even so, I think that in a Song of Ice and Fire, Martin does seem to be building in some sort of "justice comes in the end" into it. I think that Jordan writes rather realisticly too, with the differance that he shows us different scenes in this realism. In Song of Ice and Fire, alot of bad things happen, women get's raped, children get's slaughtered. It can be an uncomfortable read sometimes. It's meant to be uncomfortable, I think, there because Martin feels it's important for his story. Alot of bad things happens in Jordands Wheel of Time too. Women get raped, children get's killed. We know that these things happen, sometimes get's a glimpse of these things. Murder and rape is a part of Wheel of Time, but graphic or in detail discriptions is not an important part of the telling of the story. I don't think that the same could be said about the series you a quote of in your sig though :O I've only read the first two books of Terry Goodkinds series (bought both at once on a sale), where the violence has an feel of entertainment/enjoyment violence in the writing atleast so far as I've read.

Jacob

20th August 2001, 16:38

Originally posted by Ulk
LOL, i knew you'd have something to say about that GWINNA, hehe. You make good points, its just that i meant the actual main characters. Like, you never saw a POV from say, Ingtar. but i see what you mean. I still say martin's better than jordan tho :p :D

Ah, but didn't you get to see things from Pedron Nial's point of view a bunch of times? I rather liked that old bugger! I was SOO sure that he was somehow going to redeem himself and end up becomming a General For the Light under Rand. Him being "One of the Five Great (Captains)" I would probably have liked him as a charecter gone over to Rand, "he" would have done well. But I also see that it is nessesary to Sacrafice some good charecters like that for the progress of the story.

Ulk

21st August 2001, 11:11

I dont think Niall was a "good" character.. he wanted to kill or capture Rand or something like that, did he not? its been a while, but i'm pretty sure that he did.

magatsu17

21st August 2001, 12:34

I like the Terry Goodkind series alot, but for one good reason. I like Richard. Rand, Richard, Rohan(Dragon Prince series), and SandTiger(Sword Dancer) are the reasons I read those are my favorite series to read. It's the Characters I like even more than the story it self. The reason I like the Wheel of Time so much is that I like the secondary characters almost as much as i like Rand. If Mat Calthoun or Perin Abyara had their own series there is no doubt I would read it. Even if Lan, Galad or Birgette had their own series I would read it. One of my problems with the WOT is that some of the Characters i like alot just don't get enough time in the book. When was the last time we heard from Rhuarc or Galad or Gawn some other of my favorite characters who i just wish were in the series more

Jacob

21st August 2001, 17:45

Originally posted by Ulk
I dont think Niall was a "good" character.. he wanted to kill or capture Rand or something like that, did he not? its been a while, but i'm pretty sure that he did.

True, but you have to remeber that from Niall's point of view/belief, Rand wasn't really the Dragon Reborn, he was a puppet for the White Tower. Thus he didn't believe that Rand was needed to win the last battle and only saw Rand as a creature of the White Tower, responsible for sowing havoc when piece and unity was needed (under a strong leader...being Niall). Niall didn't believe that the one power would be needed (or desired) to win the last battle. From the view we got of Nialls' mind, I think that he didn't really believe that all Aes Sedai were darkfriends such as the White Cloak policy regarding Aes Sedai were, but that it was still some kind of evil to wield the One Power. That the One power wasn't meant for man maybe. (Power corrupts, the one power corrupts absolutely...)

Harun

31st August 2001, 18:24

I love both WoT and SoFaI. I think that Jordan and Martin are both excellent writers, though in different ways. And as for sex and violence, I think that in Martin's books it seems very natural and realistic, while in Goodkind's books it seems very pornographic.

magatsu17

31st August 2001, 19:08

Ponographic?? Is that supposed to be a bad thing:)

Jacob

1st September 2001, 18:38

That rather depends on once preferences and what you are out to get from reading the book, I guess. And even though I may find slightly erotic content weaved into a story (depending on the story), I think that to in Goodkinds case it is rather differently. One thing I did note when I read the first two books (got them at once, didn't read on after that) was that the ONLY potentially romantic love scene was also the only sexscene where we actually didn't get any discriptions of the sex.
I don't know, maybe Goodkind's goal is to try and give a realistic description of war (and the badness of humans in those situations) but if so, I don't think he succeded as planned.

magatsu17

3rd September 2001, 12:31

I was just talkin with my brother yesterday about ASoFaI and we he thinks it's better than the wheel of time right now. I don't agree but he did make a really good point. When Robb died I was so discussed that I put the book down and didn't even pick it up again for 2weeks I was so pissed off. He said that when a story has you that much that you get mad not at the writting or at the character devlopment but at what happens to a character. In quality of writing I think George RR Martin is right there with RJ but I still think that the 1,2,3 of WoT are better than 1,2,3 of ASoFaI

GWINNA

3rd September 2001, 12:48

Originally posted by magatsu17
I was just talkin with my brother yesterday about ASoFaI and we he thinks it's better than the wheel of time right now. I don't agree but he did make a really good point. When Robb died I was so discussed that I put the book down and didn't even pick it up again for 2weeks I was so pissed off. He said that when a story has you that much that you get mad not at the writting or at the character devlopment but at what happens to a character. In quality of writing I think George RR Martin is right there with RJ but I still think that the 1,2,3 of WoT are better than 1,2,3 of ASoFaI
I don't know, I was pretty upset when Mat and Aviendha died, I was realy upset when moraine died but when I figured out she would be coming back I got over it.

Ulk

3rd September 2001, 14:05

Originally posted by G.W.I.N.N.A

I don't know, I was pretty upset when Mat and Aviendha died, I was realy upset when moraine died but when I figured out she would be coming back I got over it.

LOL, for the whole 10 seconds they were dead

GWINNA

3rd September 2001, 14:19

Originally posted by Ulk

LOL, for the whole 10 seconds they were dead
FUCK YOU! I didn't know they'd be brought back to life until Rand Hit Ravhin with the God Damn Balefire!:mad:

magatsu17

3rd September 2001, 17:58

Actually I was shocked when that happened also but that didn't make me stop reading it for two weeks I read the rest of the book cause I just knew it couldn't end like that

When Robb died I knew it was over for him, my favorite character out of the story, It was really hard for me to start reading again.

But I had to see what was gonna happen to Jon and Arya. But Arya still in her fucked up situation. I wish something good would happen to her.

GWINNA

3rd September 2001, 20:34

Originally posted by magatsu17
Actually I was shocked when that happened also but that didn't make me stop reading it for two weeks I read the rest of the book cause I just knew it couldn't end like that

When Robb died I knew it was over for him, my favorite character out of the story, It was really hard for me to start reading again.

But I had to see what was gonna happen to Jon and Arya. But Arya still in her fucked up situation. I wish something good would happen to her.
Well I still get sad every time I read the end of book five so, screw you! ;) :p :D

Jacob

5th September 2001, 18:19

Originally posted by magatsu17
(snip)

But I had to see what was gonna happen to Jon and Arya. But Arya still in her fucked up situation. I wish something good would happen to her.

But that's the whole point! I don't know if there is any better rating in how good a character is than that you start to feel for the characters. Sad when things are going bad, happy when things are going good etc. And I DO think that Arya will have her day yet. She is defenitely one of my favorit characters in aSoIaF! I wasn't THAT much of a fan of ASoIaF after reading the first book but as I got more into it - more into the characters - I got more and more hooked. It isn't so much what will happen next in the story that I'm looking forward to reading as what will happen to the characters in the series. THAT, I think, is what markes out a series that can be spun very long...so if the author and the publisher knows this too well, it might not always be that good I think. Or maybe it should be, if the Author likes his characters too much, that might be what keeps him/her from reaching the End in a timly fashion. Hmm...

LaughingTurtle

12th September 2001, 17:37

Originally posted by magatsu17
But Arya still in her fucked up situation. I wish something good would happen to her.

Well from what we can infer from the thrid book her situation is soon going to be getting better. It's been a while since I last read the book so bar with me, but having the special coin and the magic words "Valor morghulis" she not only booked passage on a ship for free, but will also be treated like the noble she is (not the street urchin that she looked like at that time).

Gina

26th September 2001, 11:32

I must say Martins series kept interested while it lasted, Goodkind's series helped me get over the fact that I read the last book of the Wheel of Time series for the next few years.

But No One kept me as interested as Robert Jordan.

1. Robert Jordan
2. JR Tolkien
3. Terry Goodkind
4. Martin
5. Anne McAffee (Dragon Riders of Pern Series)

magatsu17

26th September 2001, 14:43

Have you read Melinie Rawn's Dragon Prince series yet, That's one of the series that kept me busy between book 7 and 8

Gina

26th September 2001, 16:56

No I haven't read that series yet

But I WILL! Thanks for telling me about it.

As for Arya, I think she's doing as good as Jon. Bran is doing the best.

I couldn't belive it when Robb died either, and I did put the book down for a good hour but it is true. When you can get that mad you know the writer has you interested.

I didn't like the fact that Bran and his little brother had to go seperate ways they should have stayed together.

magatsu17

26th September 2001, 19:38

I think Arya has had it worse than any character in the whole series. She's only a little girl, but what she's been through has been horrible. But that's not the worse thing, every time you think she's about to be saved, or that she finally has caught a break it just end up she's in a worse situation.

The part when she was chillin with the Hound was pretty cool though.

Jon Snow, that such a cool name, hasn't had it as bad. I mean it was sad when he lost his woman, but the situation he's in now is still way better than Arya's.

Sansa also has been getting screwed over the whole series, just about. And she also had her wolf killed. Over that son of a brother and sister(isn't that the nastiest thing you ever heard)prince Joffey. I'm just glad he's dead.

Tyrone is one of the coolest characters any story I've ever read. He's probly the only Lannister with a good heart, though Jamie has shown some signs. Tyrone is still my favorite character in the series though.

And was I the only one shocked when they cut off Jamie's hand, Man was that ever screwed up. Just when you finally start to like the guy he loses his main strength.

Gina

3rd October 2001, 12:31

Poor Poor Rickon, everytime I think about it, it makes me sad :(

Everyone leaves him, his favorite brother is dead, his dad, mom, sisters and then he leaves the only brother he's got left (other than Jon of course)

I think Jon's gonna make a great... what do they call the head of the night watch? Well, you know what I mean ~crinkling my forehead in thought~ He needs to get a hold of his skills like Bran though.

Arya doesn't even know she's doing what she does but she's going to be great at it when she finds out.

Hey and how come her wolf never came back to her? I guess if it did everyone would know she was a Stark. I hope she gets her wolf back soon :D

Jacob

3rd October 2001, 18:02

I kept waiting for that wulf to come back too! Arya is my favorit among the Stark Siblings, I always look forward to reading he chapters the most. I can't remember right now, but we DO "see" her wolf in the last book, don't we? Or see through it, I believe? Her mother in the River e.g. (I think that my memory comes back:) But since she's on her way across the ocean, she's not going to meet up with her wulf for some time :( I wonder what that meeting will be like then and if her direwulf will be the same, or if it has turned completely wild at heart?

Aragorn

10th November 2001, 13:37

I don't know about Arya's life getting better any time soon. Yeah, she got free passage on a ship, but she's probably going to end up sailing right into Daenerys' or Stannis' hands.

LaughingTurtle

10th November 2001, 13:53

Jeez everyone's a pessimist! ...though, not that that can be helped in a series like this...main characters dieing left and right and such...:rolleyes:

jade

13th November 2001, 00:26

i was actually quite upset when siuane sanche (sp?) gets disposed... the breaking of the tower made me sick, especially when i found out that gawne had a hand in it... and that he had killed the sword masters... after reading that chapter, i actually had to put down the book...

magatsu17

13th November 2001, 21:51

Yes but how long did you put it down, for a few hours, days or weeks. I stop reading SoFI for like 3 weeks before I was able to pick it up again, the only reason I did was for Arya and Jon Snow.

Arya just can't catch a fucking break in this series.

Elspeth

6th December 2001, 00:32

I know no one's added anything to this thread for a while, but i'd like to add a complaint to the "Martin is mean to his characters" list. What happens to Theon?!?! (remember him, the Starks' foster kid, everyone thought he killed Bran and Rickon) Is he languishing in a dungeon somewhere being tortured and skinned alive, or is he dead? (I hope not dead because I thought he was interesting).

Strabo

6th December 2001, 01:04

I really like WoT and Fire and Ice. But I have to keep them seperate to avoid comparing them to each other. It helped that I read one about half a year or so after I read Winter's Heart. With several books in between. So I didn't really have WoT in mind when I read it. It's heartrending when your favored characters die...but I was so amazed that Martin actually started killing off his main characters that I had to keep reading to find out. It's ending up that the characters I least liked in the begining are the ones that are developing the best. It really makes the series worth it to me. Even the deaths that drive me crazy, like Ned Starks and Robbs, keep me reading. In that book I have absolutely no idea what is going to come next. WoT I'm not sure whats coming next either, but through the prophecies and everything we have some sort of idea. It's great reading HOW the prophecies are coming to pass. WoT is great because of it's complexity (although it can be very fustrating at times.) Fire and Ice is great because anything can, and probably will, happen. Who knows what nation is going to fall, or who is going to die. Ok, thats enough rambling for now.

Aragorn

7th December 2001, 23:54

I believe he's being skinned alive by that Bolton guy, who of course is working for the Lannisters.

Evil_Wild_One

14th March 2002, 16:43

Whee! We're discussing my favorite book series of all time! ^_^ Naturally I like the Wheel of Time too, but I prefer Martin's writing style. He's just more. . .blunt in his descriptions, and he gets to the point faster.

"And was I the only one shocked when they cut off Jamie's hand, Man was that ever screwed up. Just when you finally start to like the guy he loses his main strength."

That was the whole point. He discovered he couldn't get his way out of situations by fighting anymore, like he always did before. He was forced to discover a brain, and some tact, and in the process, he discovered that he still had some honor left, when he gave the sword to Brienne.

I was pissed off when they cut off Jaime's hand too, but in the end, it made him an even better character, in my opinion.

"I know no one's added anything to this thread for a while, but i'd like to add a complaint to the "Martin is mean to his characters" list. What happens to Theon?!?! (remember him, the Starks' foster kid, everyone thought he killed Bran and Rickon) Is he languishing in a dungeon somewhere being tortured and skinned alive, or is he dead? (I hope not dead because I thought he was interesting)."

Eh. . .I don't particularly care what happens to Theon. I'd like to find out for sure what happened to him, but I'd much rather see what's happening with him through his sister, Asha, or his uncle, whatever the guy's name is. Asha preferably, though. She had a good sense of humour.

Hmmm.....anything else to comment on?

Oh yeah, Arya. I don't think she's being screwed over, really. She's just growing up and learning to be one kick-butt girl. I'm hoping that she'll come back to Westeros and slay Cersei, but Martin rarely does what people expect.

Speaking of Cersei, did anyone else hear she's got a POV in the next book? I wonder if she'll be even bitchier, or if GRRM will further blur the lines between good and evil and make her a sympathetic character.

~Lex

Buckweet

27th March 2002, 00:00

I just got the first book... I already read the first 50 pages(paperback)... and so far it isnt bad at all:)

Crossing my fiungers and hope I love it..from what I here of it--I will:D

Ok thats it...bye

~~covers his eyes as he exits this thread~~

:rolleyes:

Cypher

27th March 2002, 08:09

So that's why I haven't seen you on D2 often anymore.

Dominyo

21st July 2002, 01:30

Damn, I almost cried when Robb died :(

I think Martin did a great job with it though, that whole part was written very well.

Aragorn

23rd July 2002, 21:47

I threw my book right across the room when that happened. Really.

Hazz

4th September 2002, 12:43

I disagree with those that say Martin is killing off everyone. Since the series has started only 2 points of view were killed. I will admit, that lots of non POVs have been roasted. But not any more then other series. The only idifference is that Martin makes you CARE for all his characters. So when they bite the dust you actually give a rats ass.

And just as much bad stuff happens to the bad characters as the good ones. Its just that we are so used to only good things happening to good characters, and bad things happening to bad characters. Martin's world is more real, so bad stuff happens to everyone, which comes as a shock to typical fantasy readers.

For example, the Lannister family has had it nearly as bad as the Starks. However, since most people consider the Starks to be the heros, we only take notice when the bad things happen to them. Oh and good stuff DOES happen, its just that it gets overshadowed by all the bad.