question

[Judas]

ok, i think it was in winter's heart, when min had a viewing about the seanchin lady, that dwarfed nanaives ability, (my friend told me about this, i am re readin the seires, and am in crown of swords) and she was suppost to have an affect that killed rand, or have some hand in it, or somthing like that. could anyone help me out? i realy don't know what(we'll call him kris)kris is talkin bout. that is understandable, seeing as i have only read winter's heart onece. i just don't remember that part. please, someone tell me if i (well, actualy, kris) am write or wrong.

[Jean]

I believe that's Alivia, she's the one that goes with Rand, Lan and Nynaeve when he leaves Caemlyn. <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> At the end, they give her Nynaeve's rings and bracelet ter'angreal and she faught Cyndane. Hope that helps!

[Jacob]

The sceen Kris (as we call him..) talked about took place during the stay in Far Madding, after Rand meets Cadsuane (I think) in his room at the in. Min's viewing isn't exactly that Alivia would kill Rand. What she said was that alivia would Help Rand Die.
<BR>
<BR>And "To live, you must die" is what the Aelfinn (or the other *finn's?) told Rand. Of course, Min does not know that.

[GWINNA]

She's also a darkfriend if that helps

[TimGoldenboots]

<BR>And "To live, you must die" is what the Aelfinn (or the other *finn's?) told Rand...
[/B][/QUOTE]

Actually I think that was LTT. Of course the Phophies & everything in the series points to Rand dieing at the end of the series. Min saw something in her viewing of Alivia that she would help him in his eventual death.

[plummer]

Originally posted by G.W.I.N.N.A
She's also a darkfriend if that helps


Where do you get that Alivia is a darkfriend? I don' t recall that at all...

[GWINNA]

Originally posted by plummer


Where do you get that Alivia is a darkfriend? I don' t recall that at all...
If I had my own copy of WH I'd tell you.

[TimGoldenboots]

You want someone to buy you a copy of Winters Heart before you tell us? That sounds like "Blackmail"...

[GWINNA]

Originally posted by TimGoldenboots
You want someone to buy you a copy of Winters Heart before you tell us? That sounds like "Blackmail"...
I just don't remember where I read it in WH, if I had my own copy I could look it up and tell you! I'm thinking it was during that whole battle scean/cleaning the taint thing.

[Jacob]

I think you remember that wrong, GWINNA. Elze - One of "Elaida's" Sisters that Swear to Rand is shown to be a DarkFriend during the battle at Shadar Logoth, but noone else.

And no Tim, that "to live, you must die" wasn't from Lews Therin, I remember that distinctly. Those few words is the only thing we know about from what the *finn's told Rand.

[GWINNA]

Originally posted by Jacob
I think you remember that wrong, GWINNA. Elze - One of "Elaida's" Sisters that Swear to Rand is shown to be a DarkFriend during the battle at Shadar Logoth, but noone else.

And no Tim, that "to live, you must die" wasn't from Lews Therin, I remember that distinctly. Those few words is the only thing we know about from what the *finn's told Rand.
whoops!

[TimGoldenboots]

And no Tim, that "to live, you must die" wasn't from Lews Therin, I remember that distinctly. Those few words is the only thing we know about from what the *finn's told Rand. [/B]

I think we are both right... I seem to remeber LTT saying that to Rand & Rand then thought that was one of the things he learned talking to the *finns.

[Jacob]

Okay, I'll concede that we're both right then :)

Regarding the original subject of the thread though: Ever since I first read it I've felt this gnawing in the back of my head that I had Heard it Before. Something about being "helped to die", perhaps in some other fantasy (Tolkies' Silmarillion??) or maybe mythology. Does anyone else here feel the same recognition of this "help to die" (not being a bad thing). Maybe even to the extent of knowing from where you remember it from??

[Buckweet]

I think the closest analogy is Jesus Christ at the Last Supper....Hey bear with me here....that's the only thing I can come up with and I dont really know why it popped in my head:

JC said at dinner that.."some1 betrayed me here... and I will die"...or something and he forces everyone to accept his dimise and so forth or something...well it made morse sense in my head...i dont know why Im posting this:rolleyes:

[magatsu17]

Originally posted by Buckweet
I think the closest analogy is Jesus Christ at the Last Supper....Hey bear with me here....that's the only thing I can come up with and I dont really know why it popped in my head:

JC said at dinner that.."some1 betrayed me here... and I will die"...or something and he forces everyone to accept his dimise and so forth or something...well it made morse sense in my head...i dont know why Im posting this:rolleyes:

He actually said that one of you will betray me, Then the Apostles started asking "Lord it isn't I is it." and when Judas said that, Jesus said something really clever that I can't remeber what I just know he said yes with out saying yes.

Judas ran away and then Jesus and the Faithful Apostles had the Last Supper

[Jacob]

The Jesus/Judas analogy doesn't seem to be totally off actually. As inspiration. I am not sure if this is what I thought about originaly, but what commes to mind now is the role that Smeagol/Gollum had in Lord of the Ring, where he bit the hand that fed him. I don't want to put it clearer than that in to spoil it for those who have not yet read LotR.

And as a sidenote regarding Judas: For Judas betrail he was forever damned, right? If he was really Destined to betray Jesus, as the texts of Jesus words read to me, then can he really be said to have been responsible for his actions? [/sidenote]

[magatsu17]

Originally posted by Jacob
The Jesus/Judas analogy doesn't seem to be totally off actually. As inspiration. I am not sure if this is what I thought about originaly, but what commes to mind now is the role that Smeagol/Gollum had in Lord of the Ring, where he bit the hand that fed him. I don't want to put it clearer than that in to spoil it for those who have not yet read LotR.

And as a sidenote regarding Judas: For Judas betrail he was forever damned, right? If he was really Destined to betray Jesus, as the texts of Jesus words read to me, then can he really be said to have been responsible for his actions? [/sidenote]

I don't agree, just cause jesus new that Judas was going to do it, Doesn't change that fact that he did it. He's still responsible for his own actions and had to pay the price.

[JoJo]

all i know is, in Dante's 9th circle of hell, Judas, Brutus, and Cassius are forever flayed and eaten by the mouths on Satan's tri-mouthed head. pretty nasty afterlife, eh?

[TimGoldenboots]

Did you ever see that Play/Movie "Jesus Christ Superstar"? It presented the story from Judas's pov... While I doubt the show was historicaly accurate, it did keep to all the main points of the New Testament & still provided more motivation for Judas to betray Jesus than simply for 30 pieces of silver.

At any rate, I tend to agree with Jacob's anology. If he was destined to betray, how can you judge a man for living up to his destiny? OTOH, this is a Biblical story. The first point made in the bible about Man is that we have free will. When Eve tricked Adam into biting into the apple mankind was judged with full knolledge of good & evil. There was nothing writen that Judas betrays Jesus until after it happened even though Jusus saw it coming.

[blight.master]

...pheasant...

[Vashna]

Um, another thread that is 3 years old being reborn so you can say ...pheasant...?

Are you entirely all right?