The worst fantasy series.

[KA3AK]

Everyone is talking about which fantasy series is the best. Yet, some of them should have never been published. This is a thread that deals with these mistakes of nature. Which fantasy series do you think are the worst ever?

[val7]

:umm:http://www.wotism.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=233

[talyn rahl]

i said it there and ill say it here the Earthsea series sucks arse, i read it when i was little then re-read it and had to try VERY hard not to fall asleep.

[LadyMierin]

The worst ever? The Sword Of Truth series... Ugh! The books are just sooo boring...

[Gerog]

Anything written by Terry Pratchet should have been torched before the publisher could get their hands on it.

[Alex Imil]

*Coughtotallydeadthredcough*

[Llothlian]

Sword of Shanaara is preeeetty damn bad...

[Allein'd'Ashan]

Anything written by Terry Pratchet should have been torched before the publisher could get their hands on it.

And how do you argue that this should happen? too boring? I think not.
and how many Terry P. books have you read?

[Gerog]

I have read enough to make an informed opinion.
My reasoning is they are not my type of book. I found them rediculous..
I can see why some people would find them funny and interesting, I am just not one of those people.

[Allein'd'Ashan]

That's the whole bloody point with'em. hey're Parodies of Fantasy... just like "Boored of the Ring" is a parody of LOTR... you don't go around reading parodies and expect them to be serious:dozey:

[Gerog]

And that is exactly why i dont like them :p
I prefer serious books over comedic books:)

[Allein'd'Ashan]

aaah... But technically, then, you can't call them bad, because you don't like parodies:p

[Gerog]

haha ok, I retract the previous statements :p

[Mazrim_Taim]

sword of shannara is, true, not extremely well written, though it is the guy's first book that he wrote in college or law school I think, so (shrugs), and he's gotten somewhat better over the years.
Let's see...
oh yeah I remember suffering through a few of Anne McKaffrey's Dragons of Pern books. Never really liked those that much...though it has been a while since I've read them.

[UR_VILE_WEDGE]

You guys aren't looking in obscure enough places. There are some real crap books out there. But for the worst of all time...

The Derni series while having an interesting relationship between the kings and the church, is pretty dumb. I mean you have the catholic church pasted onto a fantasy world. And there are a lot of Deus Ex Machina scenes.

[Jedi Jeff]

Anything in the Dragonlance series not written by Weis and Hackman, and even some of their's are pushing it.

[Byrn]

Hey now, there are some good Dragonlance books. Weasel's Luck, Stormblade and the Kith-Kanan books spring to mind.

As far as books I couldn't finish, John Marco's books. I couldn't finish the Jackal of Nar. Talk about cliche. I started writing down predictions for the next chapter. After being right for 10 chapters in a row, it stopped being funny.

[Miraploy]

I agree with Earthsea series, UGH!

[nae'bliss]

has to be sword of shannara by Terry Brooks
Ive been considering sueing him for the time wasted in my life reading his work!:grumbles:

[Thorbear]

:eek:
I loved the shannara books!
Can't remember if I read "Sword of Shannara", but pretty sure I did.

Tried reading "Red Rabbit" by Tom Clancy once, but never got far. But I don't remember if that was the summer I started reading WoT, so I'm really not sure if it sucked, or if I just got distracted :rolleyes:

[Dregs]

Anything in the Dragonlance series not written by Weis and Hackman, and even some of their's are pushing it.

I hear ya! There was one where Tanis went into some guys memory, it was fkn terrible!

[cynewolfe]

The Chronicles of Gor by John Norman. - Ok, so, basically, John Norman can't get laid and he writes TWENTY SIX books about it in a Type A/Type B world. Either your a Master or your a slave. No if ands or buts about it. Now, this would be fine, its been done before. But, the problem is, the plot of every (all twenty six) book involves the rape of and/or the brutal degredation of a woman based on someone he met in real life. Can't get laid? Write about her and kill her in the end. Get chewed out by a Betty-Lou in a honky-tonk bar? Write about her and kill her in the end. Get cut off on the highway by some dame in a convertible? Write about her and kill her in the end.

Nearly every fan of Norman calls themselves a Gorean, living out the lifestyle 24/7 visa vis BDSM. I met one poor woman who had Goreans knocking on her doorstop with chains, trying to drag her off to be their slave-girl. She never contacted the police. Its like every creepy pseudo-stalker furry/real vampyre you've always want to f-ing curb-stomp with herpes-infested steel cleats assimilated into a distinct sub-culture while attending biker conventions in studded leather armor thongs and wielding cheap Pakistani swords. I don't typically care much about creepy geeks but these Conan-wannabes take the cake. If an unwashed furry with a war-hammer greets you with "Tal," run very far away.

- The Eye of Argon by Jim Theis. A short story which is usually read outloud in large groups with larger amounts of alcohol. Its a comical example of thesaurus rape gone bad. You can read it here; http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/susan/sf/eyeargon/eyeargon.htm Its always worth the ROFLerbation

Some of Jack L. Chalkers stuff is crap.

EVERY World of Darkness/Vampire the Masquerade/Werewolf the Apocalypse spin-offs are shit. Oh, and Magic the Gathering books.

I can't think of much more; everything I considered crap I threw out last year. >_>

[Arinth]

The series with Rhapsody, I don't remember what the series is called, but I couldn't get through it.

[KA3AK]

Well, as long as this thread's grave was so recently dececrated... I guess I'll share some of the crappy fantasy I've read:

Shannara. Awful! The only cause of it's popularity that I can think of, is it's staggering simularity to LOTR, minus any literary talent of the author. All the books stink of complete rip-off! Many authors borrowed certain parts of Tolkien's world, but Brooks went further, and stole pretty much all of the main themes as well, along with much of the plot and characters.

Apart from that, the books are full of logical mistakes and mishaps (like the size of the Shannara world seems to vary with every chapter). The plot is predictable, boring, and doesn't change much from book to book. The characters are dull, forgetable and one-dimentional. They remind me more of toons then real people. In fact, Shannara is so bad, that I feel like I'm wasting my time critisizing it. :grumbles:

[cynewolfe]

Well, as long as this thread's grave was so recently dececrated... I guess I'll share some of the crappy fantasy I've read:

Shannara. Awful! The only cause of it's popularity that I can think of, is it's staggering simularity to LOTR, minus any literary talent of the author. All the books stink of complete rip-off! Many authors borrowed certain parts of Tolkien's world, but Brooks went further, and stole pretty much all of the main themes as well, along with much of the plot and characters.

Apart from that, the books are full of logical mistakes and mishaps (like the size of the Shannara world seems to vary with every chapter). The plot is predictable, boring, and doesn't change much from book to book. The characters are dull, forgetable and one-dimentional. They remind me more of toons then real people. In fact, Shannara is so bad, that I feel like I'm wasting my time critisizing it. :grumbles:

As I recall, Albertsons grocery markets sold the Shannara books. Now, if I can buy a book, the last place I want to buy it at is Albertsons. Oh yes, lets all chip in for a side of ham, some lettuce, milk and potatos and A SHANNARA BOOK. WHOOO!

[spikes1soul]

the Wren series by Sherwood Smith. terribly written with a stupid plot

[BenIII]

The worst ever? The Sword Of Truth series... Ugh! The books are just sooo boring...

There aren't words to describe how much I dislike SoT. Seriously, it's as horrible a fantasy series as I've ever read. Horrible character development, horrible dialogue, and just a horrible story overall. And God, enough the sado-masochism already.

[scuicho]

Master of chains. Not sure who wrote it but wizards of the coast published it (shivers just from thinking about it)

[Enariom]

Eragorn.... The only thing that sucked more than the book was the movie.

[Cristo]

There aren't words to describe how much I dislike SoT. Seriously, it's as horrible a fantasy series as I've ever read. Horrible character development, horrible dialogue, and just a horrible story overall. And God, enough the sado-masochism already.

You couldn't be more right.

I was so let down by the Shannara trilogy. It's was so generic, and far too rushed. All the stuff that happened in those books were not meant to happen in only three books.

[SeiaDoon]

The Chronicles of Gor by John Norman. - Ok, so, basically, John Norman can't get laid and he writes TWENTY SIX books about it in a Type A/Type B world. Either your a Master or your a slave. No if ands or buts about it. Now, this would be fine, its been done before. But, the problem is, the plot of every (all twenty six) book involves the rape of and/or the brutal degredation of a woman based on someone he met in real life.


These Gor books are freaking garbage of the worst order. Agreed 100%.

I tend to steer away from the other Dragonlance/Vampire the Masquerade pumped out for product type books entirely, but I am quite sure they are rampant with crap.

I tried like hell to read the freaking Trillium books from Zimmer-Bradley, Norton, Lackey -- just dreadful. Hell, ANYTHING by Lackey that I've read was just putrid.

I'll also echo the SoT- Goodkind stuff. Terrible. A blight on the soul of humanity.

[Dregs]

These Gor books are freaking garbage of the worst order. Agreed 100%.

I tend to steer away from the other Dragonlance/Vampire the Masquerade pumped out for product type books entirely, but I am quite sure they are rampant with crap.

I tried like hell to read the freaking Trillium books from Zimmer-Bradley, Norton, Lackey -- just dreadful. Hell, ANYTHING by Lackey that I've read was just putrid.

I'll also echo the SoT- Goodkind stuff. Terrible. A blight on the soul of humanity.

The Trillium series was horrid. I forced myself through the first two books (if there's any more than two, some publisher somewhere needs a beating), and I wanted to punch myself in the head.

I've just bought the third Weis/Hickman trilogy for Dragonlance. I'm hoping its good, but it was cheap (all 3 for $20AUD, retail condition), so if it is "rampant with crap", no great loss.

[Ancalima]

the sword of truth by terry goodkind is horrible. or at least the first four books are. I got so tired of reading about how much those two main characters loved each other, that i ended up throwing them on the floor.

[Hagazussa]

I love Sword of Truth. I like Wheel of Time a little bit better due to the nice magick system, but it is my second favorite among Fantasy series.

The World of Darkness books, like Vampire the Masquerade have very varying quality, but some are really good.

I have to agree on the Gor Saga, it is really, really, really bad, but according to pepole that have read them, his other fiction books are ever worse so perhaps they are not the worst books ever. Strangely, there are a whole group of pepole that base their lifestyle on the Gor books and draw much meaning from them.

It think that really go to show that one really can not mark a book as universally bad. What you hate, somone else will love, one can only say good or bad for you. I hated Lord of the Rings, that do not mean the books are bad, but that they are not what I like.

[Hagazussa]

Nearly every fan of Norman calls themselves a Gorean, living out the lifestyle 24/7 visa vis BDSM. I met one poor woman who had Goreans knocking on her doorstop with chains, trying to drag her off to be their slave-girl. She never contacted the police. Its like every creepy pseudo-stalker furry/real vampyre you've always want to f-ing curb-stomp with herpes-infested steel cleats assimilated into a distinct sub-culture while attending biker conventions in studded leather armor thongs and wielding cheap Pakistani swords. I don't typically care much about creepy geeks but these Conan-wannabes take the cake. If an unwashed furry with a war-hammer greets you with "Tal," run very far away.

I think however it is time to clear up some misconceptions. I know many Goreans, of them, one is a biker. One is a material artist so he might own a sword, I do not know, but no, Goreans generally are not bikers whit swords and are Conan wannabes. Gorean are just like everybody else, dress like everybody else and might be the lady packing your groceries at the store or your doctor.

Goreans generally do not play dress up, nor act like idiots. Gorean lifestyle is a philosophy that is drawn from a set of fantasy books, and that is nothing new. The philosophy explained very simply is this. You are a individual, you are Master of your own life. You must learn to master yourself and not give society the blame for all that go wrong. Life is not fair, and you have to make your own luck and happiness, none is responsible for that but you.

It also cherishes values like honor, integrity and being true to one self. Goreans believe that most men are better of as leaders in a household and most women as followers. And yes the lifestyle do have consensual slavery as a part of it as it is believed that being a slave is the most feminine thing a woman can do and it is believed that many women have the need to be such a slave to be happy.

However there are an important point here, consensual. Goreans do not kidnap pepole. Generally Gor is a lifestyle where the men are the leaders, and women are housewives supporting their men or are slaves. It is hardly a lifestyle that fit everyone, but it is a nice and valid way to live ones life. Sure you have the occasional wannabe, witch is what your friend met, a few pepole that think it is about BDSM and kink, but they have not understood the lifestyle. Most are decent, intelligent pepole that just have chosen to live an alternative lifestyle.

So sure, if some person that look like they come from a Warhammer live whit chains and a big sword yell Tal at you, sure do run, but if a normal person whit an alternative lifestyle say Tal to you, do not judge that person for not having the exact same lifestyle as you. Being a Gorean is no worse than being an Occultist, or a Goth or anything like that. Goreans add color to society, and I think it is good not everyone are the same.

[Jominus]

Eragon. It would be semi-decent if Paolini hadn't ripped off various other stories and put together his crap one, but he did, and that's that.

[Hagazussa]

Well to be honest, so did Jordan. Most Fantasy have elements taken from other works in them.

[Byrn]

I ask you what Fantasy stories did Jordan rip off? While it is not enirely original, THe Wheel of TIme is NOT a rip-off like Eragon.

[Hagazussa]

For example Dune.

And how is Eragon more of a rip of than most Fantasy is of each other. Sure you have Durza, he is probably inspired from fades, but then they are inspired from nazghul (or whatever way it is written) in Lord of the Rings. But other than Than I do not see that Eragon is a rip of. It is a bit un original, following the fantasy cliche rather closely. But it is not a rip of.

The story of a young boy, a nobody that finds out he have magickal abilities and go of to save the world, get the help of some mythical creature and win the love of a princess, now that is hardly something new and daring, it is following the fantasy formula, but that do not mean it is taken from other works, it just means it is stereotypical.

[Jominus]

Where'd that thread go...

I can't find this thread where I debaeted the similarities between Eragon and Star Wars. However, if you look at Brom and Old Ben, you should see a huge list of similarities. Eragon is so fucking similar to Skywalker that it's not funny, and the elf chick is Leia. If I find the debaet I'll copy + paste.

[Byrn]

I've read Dune and don't see that much similarity to WoT. THe thing that is the same is the fact that there are warriors from the Desert.

Jordan took African tribes and mixed them with Norse People to make the Aiel.
The Dune thing doesn't ring true.

[Hagazussa]

You are aware that Star Wars is made after the concepts in the book a Hero whit a Thousand Faces by Joseph Cambell right? That there are scores of characters that are similar to Luke Skywalker, there was scores before and there was scores after. And the old mentor character that die is also a common archetype. Eragon is no more a ripoff than other Fantasy books that follows this formula. Wheel of Time is one of them.

As for Dune, let me count some similarities:

The main character is a young man destined to become a messiah like figure. He gains magickal abilities usually reserved for females. He is attempted controlled by a order of female mages. He then go to a dessert and becomes the prophesied leader of that pepole, leading them to victory over other nations. He have more then one woman, of witch one is a warrior from the dessert pepole and one is a princess. The order of female mages are politically very powerful and have their hands in most of the politics. Their structure and titles are based around titles and structures of catholic nuns orders. The dessert pepole are set apart from other peoples of the setting, they seeing the other peoples as weak, the others seeing the dessert dwellers as savages. The dessert pepole are extremely strong fighters. The dessert pepole practice polyamory, the men having several wifes. Their society is based around chieftains and their female mystics. The main character starts a order of male mystics, teaching them the magick before reserved for females.

Need I go on? I am not saying that WoT is a rip off, but I am here trying to make a point that if the few similarities here and there in Eragon make it a ripoff, then the series this site is about is a much bigger rip off from its similarities to Dune.

As for the Aiel they are not a mix of African tribes and Norse peoples. Jordan have said that they are Celts, witch is why they have red hair, mixed whit Australian aboriginies, the only similarity whit Norse pepole is that folks up here tend to be tall.

[Byrn]

I beg to differ on the Norse thing. I actually spoke with Jordan face to face at a book signing. They don't just have Red hair, which is originally a Germanic/Norse trait, but light brown to Blonde aswell. And I KNOW for a fact he used AFRICAN tribes, the Zulu, as part of the Aiel template.

Have you actually read Dune? The feel of the story is worlds apart from the Wheel of Time. At what point does Paul have more than one wife?

[Hagazussa]

Celts can have brown hair to you know. Now I have read several interviews whit Jordan. And he have said that he have based the Aiel on Celts combined whit several native populations particularly the Australian aboriginies.

As for hair color, old Norse peoples and their descendants did not have typically red hair, but red hair was popular and it was sometimes colored red. The most common Norse hair color is dark blond and light blond. And I actually know this. I am Norwegian, the Vikings are my ancestors and I have read quite a bit about them.

Yes I have read Dune, and Paul is not legally married to two women, however he is legally married to Princess Irulan, but is together whit Chani and considers her his wife.

Yes the feel of the stories are much different, but many of the consepts are very similar.

[HappyJoyMan]

Yeah, the first 2 Goodkind books were actually good. They went to shit immediately after, though. But the same is true of WoT.

Dune was terrible. Bumbling prose, lame characters. Bleh. Eddings's books were even worse, though...ridiculous characters and one of the stupidest explanations for how magic works I could ever think of. And Weiss and Hickman...wow. The fantasy equivalent of Danielle Steel...you could probably create a computer program where you punch in the names of characters, then put them in place of character names from a bunch of their previous books, and then randomly pick paragraphs out of previous books and presto, you'd have a new novel.

[Hagazussa]

First of all there is a type of fantasy that is like the fantasy version of Danielle Steele, it is called Paranormal Romance and is a type of books many like to read. I among them.

Secondly. My favorite WoT book is the third, so I do not agree whit you. What I think is a shame whit this tread is that everyone say, becouse I do not like it, then it is shit. Ok, I do not like football, most other sports, fashion addicts and so on, do that make it shit becouse I do not like it?

There are many fantasy books that I personally do not like, that do not make them bad, what make a book good or bad is often the quality of the writing, and that have not been discussed much, only that oh I do not like such and such book so that is crap.

[HappyJoyMan]

I don't know if you're talking about me, but the quality of writing is all I care about. I specifically mentioned the horrific prose in Dune...worse than Stephen King in his younger days, and that's saying a lot. WoT turned to shit because Jordan wasn't talented enough to keep myriad storylines coherent, nor was he talented enough to keep the cosmology he had created under control...inconsistencies galore...I'm just thankful that he got 2 good books out of it. Goodkind fell prey to a lot of the same, though he seemed to simply run out of ideas, and started repeating himself in terms of plot and dialogue. And I'm not sure that I can be much clearer in saying the quality of writing in a book is bad when I say that a computer could write it, e.g. the ridiculous stuff the Weiss and Hickman put out. Many people have ripped apart the writing style of Terry Brooks in this thread as well. And the fact that there's a fantasy analog to Danielle Steele's genre frightens me...it frightens me even more that anybody would ever like it.

Simply put, if quality of writing is the measuring stick we use, there aren't very many good fantasy series out there. It's sad, and I wish there were more good ones.

[Hagazussa]

But why if it is not just a personal opinion why is Frank Herbert celebrated as one of the best science fiction authors ever, why are then Dune loved by millions of pepole? Is it that you have so much better taste that if you do not like something, it sucks? I find the writing in the original Dune books to be superb. And quite a few pepole agree whit me.

Same whit Wheel of Time. It is wonderfully written, the whole series. And I have seldom seen more coherent storylines, or more details. I have seen few or no inconsistencies in the books. The books are masterworks, plain and simple, again, millions of pepole agree whit me.

As for Sword of Truth, it to is a very, very good work. It is imaginative, well written but personally I think it have a tad to much political propaganda in it. But generally the books are wonderful and well written. And again, what would you know, millions agree whit me.

As for Paranormal Romance. That it is frightens you that pepole would like this tell me that your measuring of what is good is simply what you like. I personally do not like Lord of the Rings, or Moby Dick or for that matter most of what Shakespeare has written, but I trust the millions that love these books that it is I that dislike them, not they that are badly written. There is nothing wrong whit not liking a book, it is however extremely arrogant to think that becouse you do not like something, it is poorly written.

Simply put, if quality of writing is the measuring stick we use, there aren't very many good fantasy series out there. It's sad, and I wish there were more good ones.

No there are tons of high quality fantasy works out there like the Wheel of Time, Sword of Truth, Dune and others. And if you do not like them, then it is you that simply do not like this type of books, not that they are bad. Or are your pleasure the universal measuring stock of what is a good book?

[HappyJoyMan]

Everybody has different tastes. That's why, when idividuals are asked to opine about best or worst ANYTHING, you end up with a broad range of opinions and an equally broad range of justifications for those opinions. You might be incapable of seeing it, but you're doing exactly what everybody else does when you offer an opinion and justify it. Some people will agree with you, others will not. Some people will agree with me, others will not. I'm certainly not saying that I'm any more "right" than you are, I'm just offering my opinion, the same as you. Plenty of people I know hate The Dark Tower series by King, and I don't throw a hissy fit because they disagree with me, and I certainly don't take it as a personal attack akin to somebody telling me I have no taste. In fact, if it were anything but that series, I would agree with most of the negative things that people say about King's work. Welcome to the world of adult conversation. If I need to qualify everything that I say with the phrase "in my opinion," I'll be happy to. I just assume that's a given on a message board, though.

I tend to not like what the masses like most of the time, and I know I'm not alone there. It's hard for me to find good books period, much less in subgenres like fantasy.

[Hagazussa]

Yes pepole have allot of different opinions, and fiction books just as other art is almost impossible to say if it is good or bad universally. That is why I say I do not like such and such book or even I think such and such book sucks instead of such and such books sucks period. As this is my opinion, not universal truth.

And there are allot of difference between saying in my opinion and I think or for me, than to say such and such things are so and so. I can say the sky are blue, Norway are cold in the winter becouse these are as good as we get to universal truth, they are not just personal opinion. However when it comes to art, I say in my opinion, as that is what it is, my opinion.

Not liking what most pepole like, that is fine, having your own taste is wonderful, however when you do not use the in my opinion or versions of it, what you say is that what others like is poor quality period, and that can be a bit annoying.

[HappyJoyMan]

Oh good grief. :lol:

[Hagazussa]

And your point whit that very mature reply was?

[Dregs]

. I can say the sky are blue, Norway are cold in the winter becouse these are as good as we get to universal truth, they are not just personal opinion.

Depending on experience, I could imagine someone saying that Norway is quite warm in Winter.



Not liking what most pepole like, that is fine, having your own taste is wonderful, however when you do not use the in my opinion or versions of it, what you say is that what others like is poor quality period, and that can be a bit annoying.

Any discussion that requires the paricipants to make a qualitative judgment (you know, the worst, the best, the most mediocre whatever, you have to assume that any statement made is only an opinion.

[Hagazussa]

Perhaps but there are ways to express an opinion and not express it as fact.

[Dregs]

Hagazussa, welcome to the internet. Maybe there should be a law that requires everyone to chuck in an IMO, but until then, you are going to have to filter fact and opinion out for yourself.

[Hagazussa]

I have just never seen being on the internet and writing instead of talking as an excuse to be rude.

[HappyJoyMan]

:D Please, stop responding to her. It just makes more.



















IMO

[Hagazussa]

I do not see that it are a huge problem if I answer Dregs, though our discussion may be a bit of topic and should perhaps be moved someplace else. Or is it me you are calling he?

[HappyJoyMan]

I was talking to everybody reading the thread besides you. IMO.

And to be clear, it's only in this thread that I'm talking about. I'm sure you're much cooler in other parts of the board. I am, too...I hope. ;)

IMO.

[Hagazussa]

First of all I am a she, not a he. Second I find it kind of offensive that you try to direct other posters communications whit me. If you have a problem whit me, take it up whit me, leave others out of it.

[HappyJoyMan]

First of all, thanks for the negative rep. Explains a lot about you.

Second, I'm relatively certain that most people will get that what I said was tongue in cheek, and I'm completely certain I don't actually have the power to "direct" where anybody posts. It was a lighthearted suggestion that I assumed people might chuckle at a bit, but not take seriously. I'm just not that powerful.

Anyhoo, I apologize for being guilty of failing to heed my own advice. Bad HappyJoyMan...very bad!

:lol:



























IMO

[Hagazussa]

Now the repetition system is meant to be a way to express if you like or disprove someones post. I disapprove of yours. Not your disagreement whit me but that you felt the need to try to drag others into that disagreement. It should be every poster's choice if they want to interact whit me or not. Now I do understand that you can not demand anyone on the forum to do anything. However I did find your suggestion insulting and childish.

[Dregs]

I don't know if you're talking about me, but the quality of writing is all I care about.
Dude, stay the fk away from the Dragonlance War of Souls. Horrendous. I don't remeber if the first two trilogies were this bad, but phwaar, stilted dialogue is an understatement.

[HappyJoyMan]

Thanks for the advice. I shall avoid them like plague. lol.