Forsaken: Girls Vs. Boys

[nightfairy]

So Rand has offed most of the male Forsaken. He still hasn't taken out any of the female Forsaken; he's still got that hesitancy to use violence against girls. How does he expect to win TG without going after any of the female Chosen? He doesnt trust any of his girlfriends or Egwene & Nynaeve enough to even tell them the whole truth about anything (which is incessently annoying), so he cant be expecting them to do all the work. As far as he knows, there's only one male Forsaken left, right? So what is he planning to do about the girls once he takes out that last guy? Any thoughts?

[Aragorn]

He'll get over that "not hurting girls" thing soon enough. Remember, he's getting to be very hard, like Lan. And you know Lan would kill a chick if she had it coming.

[Vivacia]

I agree. The time will come and He may hesitate, with bad results, but when push comes to shove He will do what He has to. He's been taught some hard lessons about women, and He's been hardened by them. Rand will NOT wuss out.

[Kiri]

Rand may be getting harder but I believe his soft spot for women still remains. It's a barrier he can't seem to overcome and I believe there is a lesson yet to be learnt that will enable Rand to overcome his problem.

He's desperately trying to be harder, but as Cadsuane has said (I think she mentions this, or perhaps it is one of the Aiel Dreamwalkers) being hard is not necessarily being strong. Rand's desperate attempt to harden his spirit and soul only makes him more vulnerable and fragile.

[Judas]

i think that his wemon will take care of it for him. i think it might be an accidental thing, where he runs into a female forsaken wile a couple of his wemon/sister wifes will take care of the issue.

[Kiri]

If that were the case then why would RJ make such an issue about Rand's inability to hurt women in the first place?

Although the Aes Sedai and Rand's closest friends such as Egwene and Nynaeve are a part of the fight to rid the world of the Forsaken, and yes they may kill a few female Forsaken, (along with male) but I believe Rand needs to learn that female Forsaken are just as evil as the male Forsaken, if not more so.

Rand's problem is prevalent throughout the entire series, and I don't think it's something RJ is going to let slide by having only females kill female forsaken.

[Aragorn]

I think its just another obstacle that he's going to have to overcome if he's going to save the world.

[Kiri]

;) Your right Aragorn it is another obstacle Rand is going to have to overcome if he's going to save the world.

The question is how? What possible event is going to occur to change Rand's feelings towards hurting women? Will one of his female beloveds die? Will someone he comes to trust completely and utterly betray him to the depths of his soul?

Any ideas?........

[Judas]

sorry....:(

[supuradam]

maybe elayne's child turns out to be black :D that'd make me want to hurt women :p

[Jacob]

Not that many women forsaken has actually come Rand's path for him to kill. He's probably (in his heart) quite glad of this. I'm not at all sure that he'll ever come over his adversety to kill women. I think it's a part of his character that's important. Rand is becoming harder and can be ruthless when he see's a need. The adversety to kill women is one of the ways his character stays human, something which he can't get disspassionate about. He needs that, his character needs that. It is something for the reader (me) to indentify with.
But if the time comes, Rand's got friends to deal with the female forsaken. Aviendha and Elayne etc linked e.g.

[nightfairy]

Granted, it hasnt come up that often. But the one time it did come up, Rand lost one of his closet companions - Moiraine. Who else has to be killed or what destroyed before he is able to fight those working for the DO regardless of gender?

[Abraxas77]

Now that Rand has two of the most powerful female channelers alive bound to him, they will know exactly when they need to be there for him. Where upon, they can Travel to his aide.

I suppose I can add Alanna as well, once she learns how to Travel. Also assuming she fights for the light. I just have a strong feeling she is a darkfriend.

[Mann]

Cadsuanne's yet to teach him tears and laughter. She says their's a difference between hard and tough, and there is. Rand can regret and dislike killing women all he wants, nut be prepared to do whatever it takes no flinching....that's tough.

To take whatever's thrown at you and keep on ticking.

[Tayhlon]

Rand does need to get over this whole "must not kill any women" thing. I mean, he obsesses over the deaths of any female that's involved with him in any way. He needs to wake up and realize that there are women (esp. the Forsaken) that would gladly capture, kill, or gentle him. You'd think being crammed in a box would have brought that point across.

Rand really needs someone help him understand this. I mean, he's going to moon over the deaths of Maidens of the Spear, when they are perfectly well aware of what they are doing and possible consequences?

Just one of those things that makes Rand who he is I suppose.

[wendy]

Judging by the way RJ writes the killing women thing is probably something RJ will have to overcome as well.

[Mann]

Actually, i'm guessing it's something he has.

[JoJo]

ok, ~channeling RJ's thoughts~

this is what will happen...

Lanfear as whoever the hell she is will 1) remember her jealousy for Rand, and 2) find out about Min. Then she will kill min a la Fires of Heaven endingm but this time she will succeed. This will drive Rand bonkers and cause him to kill lanfear and then go on a female forsaken hunt.

[nightfairy]

Hmmm. Interesting. I'm thinking, though, if one of his little ladies have to go, I'm thinking it's Avienda. She's the one who's head we get to peek into the least. Or maybe Elayne will be the victim, & lose the babies.

[Mann]

I wish it could be...but...

1) 'Min sees Elaynes babies, so we know they're born, so Elayne lasts at least that long.

2) We see three women surrounding a bier weeping, but Rands corpse tuns out to be an effagy and Logain steps over it. Thats still to happen and we need all three brats for that.

[balefire]

Originally posted by Abraxas77
I suppose I can add Alanna as well, once she learns how to Travel. Also assuming she fights for the light. I just have a strong feeling she is a darkfriend.

Not trying to be a spoiler if you haven't read Winter's Heart (I only read up to the part where Rand, Nynaeve, Lan & Alivia(?) disappear with ter'angreal after Rand got bonded & made love with Elayne) but Alanna has learned to Travel from Cadsuane, who learned it from Sorilea.

Why do you think Alanna is a Darkfriend? I can't see anything hinting of it.

[supuradam]

cadsuane learned from sorilea? they make a huge point of saying how sorilea can't channel anything more than a small flame over her fingres, and even that's sketchy.

[archely]

Yeah, cadsuane learned from sorilea....she says something like "i can't make the weave work, but i can show you how to weave it." She proceeds to demonstrate the weave, but the strands are too weak, and so it just falls apart.

[Relayquin]

Hmm...and Asmodean couldn't teach Rand how to Travel, for the exact same reason. The DO rot him, that lying bastard! :)

[Abraxas77]

Originally posted by balefire
Why do you think Alanna is a Darkfriend? I can't see anything hinting of it.There are no hints to say she's in the light either. As the story approaches the Last Battle, I grow more skeptical of every character. Besides, she made a bold move to attach herself to Rand without any explaination as to why--or to convince ME she bonded him in name of the Light.

....was Alanna in the group that went to the Sea Folk ship w/ Rand and Meranna et all......and then Min had a viewing of them?

[archely]

I suppose it is possible that Asmodean couldn't teach Rand because it only works that way for women....just a possible explanation but still...it does seem a bit inconsistent.

[radarofpolo]

Does anyone know which forsaken are left after WH?

I checked again and all it says is that there were "several singed forsaken and one dead renegade". Who was left after the battle?

[Abraxas77]

Check out Enemy Hideouts: Overview in this forum.

[astraea]

My first posting...
Rand is aware of the ways Lanfear has tried to manipulate him, appearing as Selene, then again in the Waste, trying to seduce him and turn him... he's not too impressed with her for reasons apart from the fact that she is Forsaken. Not to mention her hand in the disappearance of Moiraine (who apparantly hs not come back, although Lanfear has), which Rand feels guilt over.
If Lanfear, now Cyndane, were to make a direct appearance, and threaten either Rand or his friends (afterall, she now has THREE women to be jealous of for his affections)... well, that might tip the balance. He might harm a woman.
Rand's inability to harm females is one of the few charateristics that remind us he is still human and fallable, for all his power. If he were to lose this humanity, the WoT would lose alot on the hero front. However, if Rand starts to strengthen himself, rather than make himself hard and brittle (what Cadsuane is aiming for), killing female Forsaken would seem the way to go... maybe.

[balefire]

Originally posted by astraea
However, if Rand starts to strengthen himself, rather than make himself hard and brittle (what Cadsuane is aiming for), killing female Forsaken would seem the way to go... maybe.

I don't see the difference between strong & hard. If you're strong you will be hard too ie. if he had been stronger he could've killed Lanfear instead of letting Moiraine make her sacrifice. That of course is the same as hard since it goes against the mustn't-hurt-women principle.

Originally posted by astraea
If Lanfear, now Cyndane, were to make a direct appearance, and threaten either Rand or his friends (afterall, she now has THREE women to be jealous of for his affections)... well, that might tip the balance. He might harm a woman.

Light I hope so! That can't-hurt-women thingy is pure foolishness & it's the sort of thing that makes him easy prey for female Darkfriends & also gets him into the bad books of the Maidens. If he could get it through his bloody skull that the Maidens are warriors & will not like to be denied battle, he would've made a better Car'a'carn

Originally posted by astraea
Rand's inability to harm females is one of the few charateristics that remind us he is still human and fallible, for all his power. If he were to lose this humanity, the WoT would lose a lot on the hero front.

Personally I don't think so. He's supposed to die anyway. And there's nothing inhuman about harming females. Blood & ashes, an enemy is an enemy, so blast him/her/it! In war, anything goes. And he's making war against the Shadow so if he has to kill a woman, so be it.

[Mann]

I think you can be hard without being strong or tough.

Ordering the slaughter of thousands who oppose you would be hard.

Taking some serious flak, and keeping on ticking would be tough.

Making difficult choices, to sacrifce your freinds for ungrateful thousands would be strong.

They're not really the same.

[Kiri]

[I don't see the difference between strong & hard. If you're strong you will be hard too ie. if he had been stronger he could've killed Lanfear instead of letting Moiraine make her sacrifice. That of course is the same as hard since it goes against the mustn't-hurt-women principle. ]

I think in this context the difference between strong and hard, is that being strong, allows Rand to be flexible, (decisions, actions, emotions, relationships, power) without betraying any weakness, where as being hard, he becomes brittle, unbending, unchanging, and unforgiving - thus he also becomes vulnerable. Ie metaphorically a strong sapling can bend with the wind, whereas a dry, brittle, yet hard sapling will snap.

[Mann]

I hate too nit-pick on metaphors, but, saplings are all sap-filled and so subple (sp?).

It's hard to make unpleasant descisions, it's strong to make unpopular ones.

[Bradly10]

I think it'll be Semirhage that turns rand into a hater of the ladies. She's been laying low for the most part throughout the series, besides the torture scenes, but I think she'll make her breakout soon with the Seanchan coming in.

She'll get a hold of one of the Ta'veren, maybe Mat, and she'll mess with that person bad enough to put Rand over the edge. She may even get a hold of Rand herself, and do some stuff to his head that will set him off. Since she's fairly powerful, not much behind Lanfear, and since shes so ridiculously evil, she'd make a fairly good candidate for Rand's first intended female forsaken kill.

Then again, perhaps not.

[Kiri]

[I hate too nit-pick on metaphors, but, saplings are all sap-filled and so subple (sp?). ]

My apologies Mann. I think I meant more along the lines of a dead sapling, dead wood, something that is considered hard, yet brittle...probably not the best metaphor, I could have thought of something more appropriate.

[Mann]

No worries mate. Tnx for the appols.

[Aragorn]

Abraxas asked earlier if Alanna was part of the group of Aes Sedai that Min had a viewing of. I think you're talking about the group that will each "serve Rand in her own way". I don't remember if she was, but it wouldn't indicate whether she was light or dark, as Elza was one of that group, and we know from WH that she is Black Ajah. She has also "served Rand" by saving him at the end of WH by killing Osan'Gar because "the Dragon Reborn has to live to Tarmon Gai'don" - a thought that must be part of Verin's Compulsion.