General Questions - (COT Spoilers)

[jimfletcha]

The comments with the arrows before them were comments I read in a different forum. I have read the series several times over, and read the 10th book in about 3 days. As a book in and of itself, I thought it was very good. I liked pretty much everything that happened. To put it simply, "It was a good read." As far as advancing the plot, however, I am SORELY dissapointed. Very little happened, although I'm sure that happened with the Seanchan is going to be a turning point in the next book. This, in my opinion, was a "catch-up" book. After two years, though, I expected more. More on that later.

First! I have some questions about the aforementioned comments.

(These are all comments about "unfinished things")

>>The 'third man' in Rand's head revealed

I always thought that was just Lews Therin, or rather Lews Therin in the flesh, so to speak...

>>Setalle Anan revealed as 'She who was'

What? What does this mean? Sorry, I must have missed that part. Someone explain?

>>Noal Charin revealed as Jain Farstrider

WHAT??????

>>Olver/Gaidal Cain mystery cleared up

Never saw THAT coming, but is that true?

I think I had more to say, but I'll leave it at this for now. Any help/comments would be appreciated!

Oh, and by the way, the part with Perrin and Elyas in the forest (You Know What I Mean, trying not to give any spoilers), was VERY cool and another pivotal (sp) moment. Just not sure exactly how...

[epiph]

really, don't bother with avoiding spoilers...i live for spoilers until i get my hands on the books. as for setalle anan, in LoC, when rand and aviendha go to cairhien for the first time in the book, avi goes off to find the wise ones and talk to them, presumably about the toh she has to elayne for sleeping with rand and the toh she had to rand about saving her life. later she tells rand about some dreams the wise ones had that had to do with him, and one that doesn't, but is important. it's a bowl of the winds dream, and the key to finding it, setalle anan, is "she who was" and they have no idea what that means. in later books it becomes pretty clear that she was an aes sedai, and i assume she was the last aes sedai to be burnt out studying ter'angreal.

as for noal, there has been speculation about him being a) the old man in the barrel watching jaichim carridin's house in ebou dar that mat sees after that one race when he's (mat) following the darkfriend who tried to kill him and rand way back in book 1.

since i haven't read the book, i can only assume the olver/gaidal cain mystery is some peoples assumption that when birgitte comments about gaidal having vanished from t'a'r he was born as olver...because time runs differently in t'a'r. i hope that's what's meant, because i liked that theory.

and as for lews therin, again, there has been speculation that there is a third person in rands head, from comments made by lew therin, and i think because of one of min's visions...but i'm not sure about the visions.

and be juicy with the spoilers, please.

[Thomdril]

I agree- the book was great but the plot was advanced little. You can see how Perrin will be able to free Faile, but he hasn't yet. Mat is out of Ebou Dar and getting to know Tuon better, but they are still unmarried and in Altara. Rand did almost nothing, but is set up for a truce with the Seanchan (or being collared). Bela is once again mentioned in the book, advancing the theories of those who think of her as the Creator. There is finally a P.o.v. in Arad Doman. Tar Valon is under seige and we can see how it will fall, but it hasn't yet. Elayne is almost Queen, but not yet. That's about it for plot advancement. Everything is set up for the next book, but that will be years away. All the plot tied up in book 11, Tarmon Gai-don in book 12.

[jimfletcha]

I have never been able to see how people think that Bela is the Creator. I just think that's pushing it a little far...

And what does PoV stand for?

[epiph]

point of view.

someone PLEASE tell me what you mean about olver and gaidal cain!! i'm now dying to know!

[jimfletcha]

It has never been mentioned in the books, but there is one theory out there that Olver is Gaidal Cain. Since Birgitte got spun out of the Pattern, so to speak, many think that either the Pattern planned this and spun out Gaidal Cain before hand, or that the Pattern compensated by turning Olver INTO Gaidal Cain.

Either way, Gaidal Cain, the guy that birgitte always found and fell in love with, was always really ugly. So is Olver. What with the big ears and all. :)

It's just a theory, but it makes sense. :)

[sven]

i don't remember cuendillar being all that heavy. is turning the iron links across the harbour of tar valon into cue realy going to keep ships out.

[mona_is_stuey]

It'll make the chain unbreakable and inflexible meaning that the only way to remove it would be to break it off the walls. That implies two things

one) Elaida leaves the chain as it is and no ships can get into the harbour leaving the ships vulnerable to attack.

two) Or elaida removes the chain leaving the harbour vulnerable to attack from the river.

Either way it's going to be major pain in the arse for the white tower. But I think it's just a ploy to distract the white tower by making them focus more of their defences on that part of the harbour, making them more vulnerable to attavk on a different part of the tower

[jimfletcha]

That wouldn't be a bad idea, but I don't think it's a ploy. I think that, by making the chain cuendillar, they just made it so that no ships can get into the harbor, thereby succesfully blockading it. :) Starving them out, in other words, with absolutely no use of force. Good idea. :)

[TimGoldenboots]

I agree... Elaida is not convinced that the Rebels have learned to Travel. So she would risk an assault by removing the chain.

The real question is who captured Egwene... if it was Elaida, it was a horible blow to the Rebels. And Egwene will never gain their respect again because of being so foolish to jeopardize herself when their entire cause rests on her shoulders. Even if she win's she still looses.

The bit about Gawyn making a choice does fit the scenereo if he is in the White Tower, however there is no reason to believe that he is... He has been banned from the White Tower and is more likely leading the raids against the rebels.

There was a mention of a third faction of Aes Sedai... Elayne mentions that about 1/3 of the Aes Sedai are missing... presumable waiting for events to unfold then they will return to the Tower. If they are the ones who captured her, then we will finally get to see what they are up to when the question Egwene.

[jimfletcha]

Ooo, I had forgotten about that part with Gawyn! Ok, here is my idea:

Elaida called Gawyn back to the White Tower, for unknown reasons. Elayne has been caputured BY the White Tower, and not that 3rd faction or by the Black Ajah. Elaida entends to ransom Elayne, or do whatever to her that she see's fit. Gawyn, upon learning that Elayne, his Beloved, is captured in the tower, decides that he has to go talk to her! Elayne explains that the White Tower is full of Black Ajah, Elaida = evil and etc. Gawyn then breaks Elayne out, and she WAILS on the White Tower. Everyone happy.

Ooo that's good! Seems the most viable option to me...

[TimGoldenboots]

I assume you want us to substitute Egwene for Elayne when reading that...

Not to be picky... but if Elayne is Gawyn's beloved all I can say is "Eeeewwwwwww"

*** Goes and watches Joe Dirt ***

[Molimo]

Ummmm... the people who captured Egwene used the OP as a weapon. Quite clearly. They blasted her boat to pieces. They're BA.

[jimfletcha]

Yeah, I meant Egwene. Just because they used the One Power, doesn't mean they were Black Ajah...

[James]

i think its perfectly acceptable for aes sedai to blast inanimate objects with the OP, DL

[TimGoldenboots]

not if there are people on that inanimate object. Egwene had an earlier self discussion about the posibility of blasting the boats that were leading into the White Tower.

[jimfletcha]

Aes Sedia can't use the one power as a weapon, unless they feel threatend. Egwene wasn't exactly coming over to check the basketball game scores.

[TimGoldenboots]

Aragh!!!! NOOOOOOOO I don't want it to be the black ajah!!! Waaaaaa

I started to write a theory about the missing third of the Aes Sedai doing something really intriguing in this matter... That they saw the split in the black tower as an inevitability and stepped aside and began manipulating events from behind a viel. Working with the Heads of the Ajah's and pumping Sheriam for information about Egwene so they could plan for events to unfold in the tower and take a hand at the last minute...

But the entire theory depended on the 3 things being linked... The Missing 1/3 of the Aes Sedai working together to unite the Tower, The Ajah Heads working together and setting up the youth movement in the hall for some as yet unknown reason... and just as important, the questioner in Sheriam's tent would have to be one of their members...

Unfortunatly, I remembered something that seemed almost natural until I saw it in the right contect...

It all hinged on them keeping track of the Rebel Amerlyn Seat through her keeper. Questioning her until she squeeled. Not in the Deliverence sence I hope. Then I remembered who was the most upset when the idea of making a treaty with the Asha'man. Sheriam almost fainted when it was mentioned. She has never struck me as either a coward or flighty when it came to what had to be done. So why was she soooo upset over the idea that there might be men who could channel walking free among their numbers? She was the only one who trembled at the thought?

If Halima is questioning her, then she must know that Halima can channel Saidin. Weather Sheriam is a darkfriend or not, is not even the question. Halima could have easilly over powered her and forced her to take an oath not to reveal the secret. It was also pointed out that Sheriam was not one of the Aes sedai walking around holding Saidar after the attacks that involved Saidin in the camp. If she was so nervous about men channeling that the idea made her faint in the hall, then you know she would have been holding onto Saidar for dear life with someone murdering Aes Sedai with Saidin somewhere in the camp... Unless she already knew who was commiting these murders...

That being said, I will let my hopes that it is not the black ajah holding Egwene die here tonight... Why RJ why??? You could have had so much more intrigue in the next book... Well, those other 2 remain a mystery and are more than likely linked... as it is the missing third are probably doing what Elayne suggested and are waiting until it is over so they can come proclaim their alegence in the tower when it is all said and done...

[Arsenic & Lace]

The one power? When did it say that? They could have just...dropped a large rock on her boat. Or..wait. I'm pretty sure she felt them channeling. Something like, "As she started her weave, she felt someone else begin to channel on the wall above her." I'll have to check that.

[James]

yada yada yada. sick of arguing about BA.

something a little more intersting. standing flows


Embracing the Source, she touched that pattern with hair-thin flows of Fire and Earth at two of the interconnections. That would not have been necessary in the Age of Legends, but something called the “standing flows” no longer existed. A world where almost any ter’angreal could be used by peo_ple unable to channel seemed odd beyond comprehension.


any ideas on how a standing flow might work?

And had anyone else picked up on the fact that Galad fancied Nynaeve? i never would have until Elayne said it outright. hopefully this will lead to a swordfight between him and Lan :D

i havent read the whole book yet, but i am quite enjoying it.

one more thing, there is a possibility that Alivia is Moiraine. It has been suggested before and it seems likelier now, what with Cadsuanes suspicions.

[Corvus Corax]

Wasn't Alivia collard at age thirteen or fourteen (WH Ch8)? And as she is fourhundred years old, I can't think how she could be Moiraine.

I always thought Galad fancied Egwenne, but like Egwenne and Rand, all can change apparently.

[James]

thats just her story, theres no proof, and any strange thing about her was probably from the Finn. Lanfear would have been killed because of her ties to the Great Lord, but Moiraine would have been fine

'As expected, she did not find the door to the al’Thor boy’s rooms unguarded. Alivia was there, of course, seated on a bench to one side of the door with her hands folded patiently in her lap. The pale-haired Seanchan woman had appointed herself the boy’s pro_tector, of sorts. Alivia credited him with freeing her from a damane’s collar, but there was more to it than that.'

and

“I think you do. Just so you know, I keep my word, too. I owe him anything he wants of me.” (Alivia)

[Molimo]

Ummmm... Moiraine wasn't even as strong as Elayne/Avi/Egwene. Alivia is stronger than Nynaeve. How is that explained? Plus, she is a Seanchan damane and very immature in some ways, to the point where Min had to tell her how babies were made.

Originally posted by Lord Semaj:
any ideas on how a standing flow might work?

I think it might be a web that is attached to a ter'angreal or some other kind of object. In this case, it would be a web of fire and earth attached to the ter'angreal. But that's just a guess...

Originally posted by jimfletcha:
Aes Sedia can't use the one power as a weapon, unless they feel threatend. Egwene wasn't exactly coming over to check the basketball game scores.

The actual wording is "Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme of defense of her own life, or that of her Warder or another Aes Sedai." (emphasis mine). They had no way to know what Egwene was doing, or whether it was going to threaten their lives. Even if they knew EXACTLY what she was doing, they made the first strike- they blasted her boat. That was NOT in the last extreme of defense, because they had other options. They could have kept her away from the chains with a wall of air, for example, or even turned her boat around and send her away. Both of those are nonviolent ways to defend themselves, but the kidnappers didn't bother with that- they just blasted her. Thus, they must not be bound by the Third Oath.

[theObserver]

So who took Ewgene?
Hrm lets see..

Egwene had that dream about placing her head on the chopping block where she would die unless someone ran fast enough. The someone could be Rand but chances are, he will walk blindly into the seanchan meeting and get collared (Egwene also has a dream about rand chained to a wall screaming – *Yawn* ). So its will be Gawyn that will rescue her in some way. Sooooo based on that, my guess is its the aes sedai loyal to eliada that captured her.

[jimfletcha]

Thus confirming my aforementioned theory. Booya.

[Nobbin]

Lanfear got less powerful... WHy couldn't Moiraine get more powerful?

**EDIT** Just throwing out a suggestion... How about the Seanchan? THey are turning out to have agents in many places.

Theory 1: Seanchan have an agent of some sort with Egwene's Aes Sedai and know traveling as a very closely held secret, sent some people to the tower, maybe with other Aes Sedai agents. Supported by a bat-like thing that flew in the sky: I think Seanchan will invade Tar Valon very soon.

Theory 2: A plot between the DF Seanchan and black ajah.

Theory 3: Elaida's Aes Sedai

Theory 4: That missing third of Aes Sedai... Could have a hidden agenda, possibly involving younger sitters and the Ajah heads? The sisters with the Borderlands group seems to suggest a lack of overall organizing, but who knows?

[Arsenic & Lace]

What about the damane/Moiraine theory? I realize it's been discredited, but in the prologue of CoT, during the PoV of the Deathwatch Guard in Ebou Dar, it made special mention of the damane that some believed was Moiraine. If they ever catch up to Mat and company, it will be the perfect opportunity for Thom to rescue her.

[James]

Thom is already contemplating how to do just that, it seems (was holding crumpled letter and kept playing snakes and foxes)

and DL, I think the standing flows are more than just seperate weaves attatched to every single ter'angrel. maybe they float around or something?

edit: i dont think Alivia is Moiraine any longer

[Spanky_79]

Warning: This could be a Spoiler:

Ok, I think that in the next book (or maybe in the next one after that since RJ likes to prolong stuff) I believe that Egwene will be captured by Elaida- possibly the BA but either case it don't matter. At the same time we learn about this and hear how Egwene is being tortured- probably has a leash on, we will read about how Rand goes to the Seanchan and gets leashed as well by Suroth. Then with Rand leashed, the Seanchan will use him to make a gateway that leads to the White Tower- simply because none of them currently knows how to make one themselves. So the Seanchan will surprise attack the tower and all hell will break lose. Little does anyone know that at the same time- Logain or one of the Black Tower members will organize an assult on the White Tower at the same time. Some how Alivia will be involved and rescue both Egwene (from her dream) and Rand (maybe kill him, because he is chained and raising hell for the Seanchan- and then after he is dead she will bring him back to life using CPR or something like that). Basically- Elaida will be killed from the Seanchan attack and the Black Tower will be in shambles from their attack and we will see Egwene seated in Elaida's place and mad at Rand and the surviving Black Tower people. Of course the Seanchan will be defeated (oh- did I mention that during this ill fated attack on the White Tower, Arad Domon and people will launch a surprise attack on the Seanchan- we heard about this earlier in the latest book) and that is how the next book or the one after will end- it is all so very obvious and logical.

[TimGoldenboots]

Straps at waist and shoulder held her tightly to the block, and the headsman's axe descended, but she knew that somewhere someone was running, and if they ran fast enough, the axe would stop.


Question: Who is curently running?

Answer: Mat and company...

I don't want to drag this out too much, because we know it will be inevitably Gawyn will make a choice that will determine weather they both live or die... but, that does not necessarily mean that his choice is part of her living here...

It is not Mat that will save her life, but Thom... RJ made it clear that he had decided to take his revenge on the women in that letter... why he changed his mind about that now remains a mystery, unless it was one of those "Standing too close to a ta'veren" type of decidions...

In any event, you have to know that Eliada's name must be on that list... and if Thom is going to get his revenge, it will start with her. And discretiting Elaida will be enough to stop the axe.

[Nobbin]

I don't know where that theory came up with the letter having names on it... I thought it was a lvoe letter from Moiraine to Thom telling him to rescue her and how...
My thoughts on Egwene/Rand with Seanchan...
I think that the Black tower will be rent up by Logain, who will tell Rand about Taim, and then Rand goes and blows up some sh*t. No clue on "Rand will know the Amyrlin's anger" it also has no clue as to whether it's her anger for sleeping with three women, being the Dragon, not doing as she says, or being a 'woolhead.' However, I remember that ALviarin reacted by telling Mesaana that Elaida might "reveal what should not be revealed" and that they should kill Elaida. What I want to know is which side the black ajah is supporting here. Alviarin's comment makes me think that the fortelling reveals something about the black ajah... *Discuss*

[Molimo]

Rand already knows about Taim's depredations... just not that he ordered the attack in Cairhien. But he knows about how Taim declared Rand's personal Asha'man traitors.

[Nobbin]

Aye, and why the hell hasn't he done anything about it? Oh yeah, cause RJ was insistant on not doing anything in book 10 that mattered in the slightest, sorry, forgot about that.

[TimGoldenboots]

Moiraine promised Thom a list of the women responsible for Gentling his nephew Owen. Then, later Moiraine gave the two letters to Rand, with the second addressed to Thom right before she died. Rand had Mat deliver the Letter when he met up in Salidar. Mat asked Thom about the Letter and Thom said it was unimportant... everything is already being taken care of. That was in the middle of the "Logain was a pupet of the Red's" scandle.

It is evident from the mentionings of the letter in the story that they contained the list, but while Logain was being setup to break the Rad Ajah Thom decided not to bother with his revenge plot... Now, for some unknown reason, he has decided that the letter is important. Either the Red Sister is on the list, or she is not but Thom found out that she dislikes Elaida, who is on the list... either way, Thom is back on his quest to get back at those who gentled his nephew and left him to die.

[Nobbin]

Ahh... All is clear now, thanks. I think there must be *something* more to it though...

[Warder Trained]

The letter quite likely also contains clues on how to rescue Moiraine. Was it in this thread or another that someone pointed out that Thom's been playing Snakes & Foxes with Olver a lot lately?

[epiph]

but how would moiraine know how to rescue her? all she saw in that ter'angreal was up to the point of the struggle with lanfear, nothing after. unless thom knows the doorway has to do with snakes and foxes, which is likely, because he's thom, and he knows EVERYTHING.

[Warder Trained]

The rings and Rhuidean might have given her clues as to how to effect a rescue. Or even if she hadn't realized that they did, she might have said something in the letter that allowed Thom to figure out how.

Standing flows. Heh. However they work, you do realize that they're the effective equivalent of electricity on electric wires. That would make a lot of the vaunted ter'angreal household appliances. The Stone of Tear is more or less an impregnable WalMart.

[epiph]

...but moiraine TELLS rand that she didn't see anything past the battle with lanfear when she was in rhuidean and the rings. thus my question: how would she know?

[Nobbin]

Moiraine may not remember the whole thing... Remember after all, that no one remembers everything from the rings. Maybe she knew she had to write a not to Thom saying "Play snakes and Ladders" without knowing what that meant? She also twists words. Just because she doesn't "know" what will happen doesn't mean she can't name any possibilities.

[TimGoldenboots]

You meen Shoots and ladders? Or snakes and Foxes?

It all means nothing to me since I don't believe that she survived that trip to *finnland in her whole skin...

My theory is still strong, and it is how I believe Moiraine will be returned to the story...

http://www.wotism.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=124&highlight=Cyndane

[Byrn]

Off Topic, did anyone else notice Tuon is black? Mat's got a case of Jungle fever......:D

[SoulAegis]

I didn't notice that until I started reading CoT.. he said something about her being made of "black porcelain" and I was like "WTF? When did she get Negrotized *TM*?" (No offense meant, my mind just kinda shot it out)

[Cloric The Cleric]

Originally posted by epiph
...but moiraine TELLS rand that she didn't see anything past the battle with lanfear when she was in rhuidean and the rings. thus my question: how would she know?

Actually, what Moiraine's letter to Rand said was:

"I hope that Eqwene and Aviendha have survived unharmed. You see, I do not know what happens in the world after, except perhaps for one small thing which does not concern you."


My thought has always been that she saw Egwene as Amyrlin, since she as much as made the suggestion to her face, and the fact that Min saw a White Flame around Eg, but I'm not sure if that was before or after Min and Moiraine were together.

HTH
CTC

[epiph]

hmm...

[Nobbin]

Min had that veiwing while Rand was on the way to Falme in book 2. Min had no idea what it meant at the time though. Perhaps the one thing is something with Thom? Remember how Moiraine says she knows who she will marry (if anyone), and Thom also says of Moiraine that she is actually quite a good woman and he is dissapointed she did not come (book 2, when Rand first meets Thom in Cairhien). Furthermore, later on, Thom and Moiraine have an almost friendly duel over who helps Rand and what they set him up to do... They are very similiar in alot of ways, and RJ does seem to be pairing up all the male/female characters... Rand, Mat, Perrin, and their wifes, even Morgase, Egwene and Siuan Sanche. Probably a few more I forgot too... Oh yeah, Lan and Nynaeve. That makes Moiraine the most major character by a fair amount without a partner... Next he'll match Lini and Balwer up ;)

[TimGoldenboots]

In TGH, Rand was convinced that Thom was dead, and Moiraine kept reassuring him that Thom was fine. Though she said there was no mention of the Gleeman in Whitebridge when she heard about the attack and she had clearly not seen him in person after they fled Shadar Logoth.

So if there was a fortelling that she trusted about her and Thom, it had happened before Shadar Logoth... More than likely it was in Baerlon when Min first viewed them all together.

[Matrim]

Quite a simpler explanation is that noone didn't fid Thom's body so moiraine was sure he was alive because the myrdraal didn't have any reason to take the body with him.

[Nobbin]

They could always be Seanchan, but I doubt SDeanchan know that much of AS politics... I hope it's the purple Ajah :)