Aha! (Rand's possible death)

[Urbal T]

I think I've got it! Rand must die to live, right? He dies at the last battle so he can be reborn in the next age. However, the Great Lord and Ishamael are trying to break the pattern, right? So Rand isn't going to die at Tarmon Gaidon.

Alright, now I don't know where to go from here on...

--Ted

[Elayne Sedai]

I heard once, from someone(don't remember who) That they thought Rand would die in the last battle.
Thom say's in a prophecy
"Twice dawns the day when his blood is sheed.
Once for mourning, once for birth
Red on black, the Dragons blood stains the
rock of Shayol Ghul.
In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men
from the Shadow."


Then there is the Twice and Twice one, which you all know.
They seemed to think that he would die and lose the last battle, only to be brought back to life by some Aes Sedai, and male channelers, who used those two big one power things(The most powerful ones.) to go back in time, so that Rand could fix his mistakes and defeat the Dark Lord once and for all.

I don't know if I beleave this, but I didn't think anyone would toss the idea out there so I thought I'd do it.
I'd like to hear other people's ideas on the whole thing though.
I think time travel might make the story more complex then it already is.

[Urbal T]

The whole point of my theory is that he's breaking the rules, kind of like the Snakes and Foxes game... I don't think there'd be time travel involved, but I don't know about people being brought back from the dead. Then again, we all thought severing was permanent. But what if one of the Chosen balefires Rand, and then somebody else balefires the Chosen who balefired Rand? If balefire really does singe the pattern, is this effect permanent? Is this paradox big enough to have it's own name? What will become of the sperm whale and the bowl of petunias?

Elayne, a "bumper of the sweetness?" I've never heard of that expression, but forgive me if it's contemporary common terminology.

--Ted

[Elayne Sedai]

Urbal T,
I got the bumper of the sweetness thing off of a song. I forget what song though. I'll tell you what song when I find out.

I didn't really beleave myself about the time travel thing, It gets all to confusing. But I really don't know what would happen with that whole Balefire thing. That would make things a whole lot tricker wouldn't it? I don't think he would come back though, because he would already have been hit by balefire, and we all know what it does. I really don't know though????

[Urbal T]

Elayne, although it is pretty sad that we still address eachother in a thread like this, I myself have no clue about the balefire paradox.

More people need to post at this thread!

--Ted

Elayne, quamquam ut inter se in hoc filo tamen alloquimur misera est, egomet de paradoxo balefiribus non scio.

Plus hominum in hoc filo proponere debent!

--Puer Petasi

--{translated into latin on a just-for-kicks basis}--

[Theoban]

I think that if you balefired someone who had balefired someone else, the person would not come back to life, I think that the universe would end as it is breaking it's own rules.

[TheDude99]

now i'm new, so you must forgive me if this has already been discussed:
rand is the savior of humanity correct? just like jesus was sent here as god's only son to save us... ok, so going on that premise, let's examine the similarities between rand and jesus (once again, forgive me if this has been discussed before)
jesus was marked through his hands and feet... that's four marks, then the crown of thorns was placed on this head, that's five, and finally as he was on the cross his side was pierced with a spear, that's six.
now rand has also been marked that same number of times, just slightly different ways: there's the herons on this palms, the dragons on his arms, the wound in his side (all of which still hurt) and finally, the laurel crown is on his head (similar to the crown of thorns) and it has cut rand at least once already.
now we know that jesus was killed on the cross and he died for mankind's sins, to save us right. but after his dead his body was placed in a cave but after x number of days the stone was moved aside and he was alive again and then ascended into heaven.
that's where i think the "die to live" thing comes from. he will die in a way, but his death will not be final. it won't be b/c of some interaction by the Creator, but something will go down so that he's not completely dead or something.
and there's another school or thought: you know that wound in his side, well maybe b/c it's never quite healed it will break open when he goes to shaoul ghul and his blood will be spilt on the rocks there.
sorry that's such a long post, and i'm not sure exactly where i was going, just that we know rand's going to "die", but somehow it won't be a completely final death. i was just trying to get a reaction to all of your thoughts on the jesus parallel.
thanks a lot.

[TheDude99]

what if rand breaks the wheel and not the DO? i know someone already touched on that, but i was thinking of it the other night... he's been thinking to himself a lot lately "i have to do what none of them expect" well he cleansed the taint and no one thought it was possible, let alone that he would try, what if he simply got all his OP weilding buddies together in one place (shaoul ghul) with all the angreal, sa'angreal, etc. they could scrape up and simply tore the wheel to pieces?
could it be done?

[Beowulf]

It can be done. Lanfear tempted Rand, saying they could challenge both the Creator and the Dark One using those super sa'angreals.

Granted, she was a woman who was mad with power. But they had a lot of power to work with so I don't think the idea was too far out there.

Maybe Rand will do something extremely drastic like you are suggesting. He got rid of the Taint, no more worries about going mad or wasting away from drawing too much power anymore. He's free to do pretty much whatever he wants now.

But tearing the wheel to pieces... ? That is just crazy. Besides the fact that their world is governed by the Pattern. I think it's the Pattern itself that keeps the Dark One away from their world.

Instead of seeing the Dark One bound within a prison. It's probably more accurate to think of the Pattern something the Dark One is bound outside of.

The Creator's made its fancy little (by godling terms) universe of light and life surrounded by a bunch of whirly gizmos, and the Dark One is trying to break through all the red tape and get inside it so he can do his thing.

He couldn't get in until Lanfear and her cohort made the Bore. Now there is a small hole that he's trying to squeeze through.

Kind of a ramble I guess, but it was an interesting tangent to me all the same.

[Theoban]

Rnad's wounds and the marks were taken from the Fisher King, not 'Jesus'

[Urbal T]

TheDude, that's what I was originally going to write, but I forgot halfway before I wrote it. Ishamael had been telling Rand that he and the Great Lord were going to slay the great serpent, because otherwise they would just be repeating themselves over and over again. Something about "but this time is different" or something. Anybody remember what actually happened there? I don't even remember which book it's in, and I only have TEotW and TFoH.

--Ted

[Theoban]

I think that what makes this time different is that the pawns are aware of the repetition. Maybe there weren't prophecies in the previous ages.

Even if they can brek the wheel, would they want to? It's the exact opposite to us, we would be terrified if we knew our future, just as Randlanders would be terrified if the future was a blank slate.

[Urbal T]

Maybe it's just one of those things that Rand thinks just has to be done. Few of the Aiel liked having a "wetlander" as car'a'carn. Besides, I think that most Randlanders are under the false impression that they can decide their future.

--Ted

[TheDude99]

i did not know that about the fisher king... i've never read it.
but don't you think that there is a similarity between rand and jesus... rand being the savior of humanity and all? isn't it also possible that the writer of fisher king took the marks on that character from a parallel to jesus as well?
does anyone else have any theories on this?
i'm convinced rand is a jesus parallel b/c of the whole die and live again thing.
if i'm wrong, someone please explain it to me

[Theoban]

The fisher king is from before the bible, anyway, the similiarities between Rand and 'Jesus' are just in the way that he is the saviour.

Otherwise there are lots of similarities between WOT and the Old Testament.

Shayol Ghul = Sheol (Hebrew word for Hell)
Seven Seals on Shai'tan = Seven Seals on Lucifer

and thats just for starters

[Elayne Sedai]

I see the similarity. If you go to the old site, you can see someone, make Rand seem like the AntiChrist, I'm a Christain, and I thought it was a pretty sad. I mean, we all know the books aren't real.

[Theoban]

In the part where we meet Moridin, he is playing Sha'rah, which includes one piece called the Fisher. The Fisher King had a wound on his side that dripped blood, and each wound was a sacrifice to wisdom. That is why the similarities between the Fisher King and Rand come up, 'Jesus' had wounds in specific places, but if we were to follow the stigmata, then the side wound would be last, not third. The wounds themselves are in different places. If you are going to parallell 'Jesus' with fantasy books, then you are likely to find references in everything.

[Theoban]

All that a =3 and 444 + 222 = 666? Yeah I read that too, and as I said there, some people have a little too much time on their hands.

[Elayne Sedai]

You could probably find a lot of names, and words that would fit that whole a =3 and 444 + 222 = 666 anyway. why make such a big deal about the whole thing? I hate it when people start in on stuff like that, because you could argue it to death, and no one will change their mind.

[Theoban]

Yeah, it's only numbers. I don't think that if there is a Devil, he will come amongst us with vague meanings found in assigning each letter a number.

[Elayne Sedai]

I know in the bible there are numbers and warnings, but I thought it wen't with the mark of the Beast. I don't think that the WOT has anything to do with that.

[Urbal T]

I've been gone (from the internet) for a while, here are my opinions for you all to shoot down: Randland is more similar to Middle Earth (although with some good twists that many fantasy authors don't have) than to either the new testament or the old testament.

I do think that the whole business with turning words into numbers etc. is BS, but then again, A friend of mine and I once bothered to find 4+ connections between Led Zeppelin IV and daily life...

Anybody read Dune? "Shaitan"

More later, time to eat.

--Ted

[Urbal T]

::reads some other theories::

Dammit, I need to read some Norse mythology!!

::rants about the futility of putting "rants" in an action; all in ASL::

::realizes how tastless the above joke was::

::mumble::

--Ted

[Arden]

What if it has to do with Rand's little friends inside his head? He's already got LTT, but what about the new face in his head? Even with saidin cleansed, Rand is still well on his way to being Mad as a Hatter. Maybe his reward for being such a good dragon will be that he will die, killing off LTT and the new mystery personality, and the former damane Alivia (who's supposed to help him die?) will bring him back to life sans the voices in his head. Then he can live out his life with his three wives and their umpteen children in Emond's Field. Or whatever, I'm just a crackpot fan, right?

[TimGoldenboots]

Here is one my friend pointed out that I have not seen discussed or even sited...

7 Seals on the DO's Prison
7 Signs of the Apocalypse. Each has a seal attached to it as well...

In the book of Revelation there is mentioned 7 Seals and each one carries it's own special part of the doom that is to come.

With the breaking of Each seal in TWoT, the DO has been getting a stronger influence on the world. Most recently, the dead have risen from the grave as evidence by SO Harbor.