Travelling

[Theoban]

One thing I was wondering about. When male channelers Travel, they bend the pattern and bore a hole through, right? What I'm thinking is that the pattern is just one big thing that is constantly being created, so that means that when you do Travel, you are not just burrowing through space, you are burrowing through time as well.

Could it be possible to Travel through time as well?

If the pattern is imagined as a piece of cloth, then surely to points can be created anywhere and brought together, so maybe if a channeler shooses the place he wants to go but imagines something that was only there for a specific period of time, he will go to the relevant time period.

[LaughingTurtle]

Interesting theory...sounds feasible (hey it's a fantasy world in the first place..:D ) But i believe that the realm of WOT is conviluted enough as it is, without some fools mess'n around with time and all. i mean look at the whole balefire thing...that's close to messing with time, and it's already killed to many brain cells of mine trying to figure out some of the paradoxes...:cool:

[Mann]

Could be a similar thing to the balefire events. But if your tenting the pattern to bend time, it would take more energy to make distant points the same, so only the really powerful could travel by more than a few minutes/seconds. Possibly more powerful than's possible. Also since the future is an endless stream of possibilities...how would you navigate.

[Mael]

Interesting theory. But I think it may not be plausible, only cos that time is constantly going forward. But, then again, this is a fantasy...

[Mann]

Well the current theory of time states that it might be reversible.

[Theoban]

I think that what we have to remember is that this world is not ours, and as such has a set of rules completely different to ours.

Time does progress forwards in our world, but it is a continuous stream, not a large pattern made of millions of threads, both forwards and sidewards (the portal stone worlds?).

So, every point in the WOT universe is therefore connected to every other part of history.

Also if it is a true single pattern, could you Travel to the portal worlds as well, as all it requires is for you to know where you are well, not where you are going?

[R'eon]

what if the Pattern is sort of like a Roman Blind, with 'wooden' runners running along it at the edges? you wouldn't ba able to bend the Pattern back and forth, only across.

hold on. i'm lost, and it's my reply.

[Mann]

What if it were a Mindean rug?

[R'eon]

Burn me, i said i was lost!
i figure i was lost after - One thing I was wondering about.

[Theoban]

What I meant with this is that when you Travel, you are always choosing a destination in space and time, and since the pattern is one large sheet, then you would always be Travelling in reference to a previous point. So you can Travel to any point of the pattern, you don't just have to go horizontally, you can go vertically too.

[R'eon]

yeah, i figured that. my counter was that ther may be some sort of 'control boards' preventing a channeller from folding across time.

but, as you say, Randland isn't our world, so it isn't restricted by our laws of space/time.

But i do agree with Mann and his point about power expenditure, after all if you have to make your time/space the same as destination time/space, you've got to take into account all sorts of things, including plantetry movements.

H@ll, you could come up with 1000 reasons why it couldn't work, and RJ will make it all possible in book 57.

[Urbal T]

Has anybody read any books by Anne McCaffrey? Doesn't this sound enormously similar to the dragon teleporting thing? I think, however, that you would probably have to use an amount of power similar to the amount used for a balefire with the same distance in time, and thus it would require a LOT of power to travel even 30 seconds.

--Ted

[Theoban]

But why would it cost more power? Balefire costs alot because you are erasing a thread, with Traveling you are already moving through time and space, all you would need to do is change where you come out.

Perhaps you could also do it with vacuoles and that would cost less power.

[Mann]

Yes it does remind me of Pern. Thats PERN people.

When you erase a thread you're altering the fabric of space/time leading to paradox and threatening the pattern. Travelling in time could cause similar reprecussions, changing things that have happened altering the circumstances by which those changes were made. So it should require a simi,lar energy expenditure to balefire. And (I know never start a sentence with And), that's only travelling backwards. Would travelling to the future result in a net gain in energy? Or would it be more expensive because the futures only probabilities and shadows of what may be?

[Urbal T]

Now it starts to sound like Dune, with the concept of seeing into the future...

Actually, if you really think of the pattern, with each thread being a life et cetera, when you Travel you are moving your thread from one place in the pattern to another. You can't go backwards or forewards in time because your thread cannot change it's length. I think, however, you can go backwards or forewards in the mirror world or in Tel'aran'rhoid, because you're only a visitor there. Now, could you target balefire to a different time, since balefire doesn't have a thread of it's own?

--Ted

[Piney K]

In one of the little prelude bits the Dragon Reborn is referred to as the Spinner out of fate . How if the pattern is being woven as the characters do their thing , can you jump to a point in the future where there is no threads yet woven . Unless the Wheel is always a replica of past Wheels you would have no idea where you were going to . Even if there was a place to go to . If the world is just a replica , it could be that you would Traverse ages and end up chatting to old LTT . This is very bad on the old grey matter .

[Theoban]

I suppose that Traveling to the future would be possible, but the only certain thing would be that you had dissappeared. Also you probably couldn't get back, because from your future point you would have been missing, so you couldn't go back and re-aooear as you this would be changing the past, and the only thing you can change is the future

[Mann]

It depends whether the future is fixed or a spinning out of probabilities.

[Buckweet]

Remember when Verin made Rand use the portal stone to get them all to Falme???

They got to the destination but lost like a few months in the process. They travelled through space and time.

From what I think I know from the big white book, portal stones can only be used ssafely by strong channelers.

So, yea I think you would need to be a STRONG channeller. At least Nynaeve level. (includes Rand, all the forsaken...etc.)
...and also you would need to use a portal stone.

I would imagine that travelling forward in time is much--much easier than travelling back. I say this b/c reality as "we" know it is in said forward direction. To travel bcak in time, enough power would need to be used to slow down time in your "vacule" until surrounding time is stopped, and then keep pushing in the opposite direction till you start to travel backwards. This seems to sound like in needs a lot more juice. So then, I guess going back more than 5 min is real tuff... just speculation :D

On a side not, do any of you remember that weave Elaida used on her roses.. a holding or something... it kept the rose still in time.... Maybe a similar weave would be incorporated into the travel weave or something...just speculation again....heheheehe

Also, I've been thinking of the portal stones throughout the whole series. One thing bothers me about them, what if when Rand, Loyal and the sniffer used it, they got back to a alternate reality that is just very very very similar to their original..??
I doubt RJ would ever $%% with us like that but, if he gets stuck in a writer's jam...(ooops I killed Rand heheheee) he can just say something like ...meanwhile in the non alternate reality Rand wins YAY!!! LOL :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :D

:p

Buckweet Gaidin

[Mann]

Unlikely. But hey?

Wouldn't the first step be to step outside of time, and then direction would be immaterial, but with power output depending on the consequences of ones actions, and the difficulty of changing the ammount of what is?

[Theoban]

I suppose that it is a little like Travelling between portal worlds, the further you have to go and the more you have to change requires more power. i.e. if you wanted to live in Emond's Field or Deven Ride, it wouldn't take much, but if a farmer wanted to be king, that's something else.

The Pattern would probably reject it.

[Mann]

But isn't there all worlds and all possible worlds; however, unlikely?

[Buckweet]

yea but the more unreal to the real one (relatively) the fuzzier everything looks.. When rand and Loyal and the sniffer went to that other dimensioon they got dizzy if they suddenly looked in a different direction. Although, I wonder if you can travel, into telaranrhiod and travel from there to another reality. I remember someone in the books explaining once that it crossed all the possible worlds.

[Mann]

Moraine, said some Browns believed TAR was the spaces between the weaves existing for all possible realities simultaneously. It's outside the wheel, which is why it doesn't affect the realities.

[Buckweet]

well, what about Birgitte??

She was bound to the wheel, and she came from TelRnd into the real world. Moghedian did it. I remember somewhere someone syait that it crossed all possible worlds.

[flyingdutchman]

ok, i see i'm needed once more to create order from chaos! feels good to be back, but if i had stayed u would never have missed me ;)

I believe someone once said: if timetraveling is possible, we would be flooded with tourists from the future! the same applies here. I haven't found any evidence of timetraveling in the story sofar, so i assume it won't be part of the story, and if it isn't part of the story, it isn't part of the story's universe. but i suppose a man can dream...

by the way, i think his name was Einstein or something? :D

man that felt good!

[Mann]

Yet Einstein provided the theory for time travel.

Why not: I doubt it's easy, it's as yet theory. It's probly dangerous. It might not be possible but prove it. Also Einstein wasn't infallible.

[Buckweet]

yea, that response sound a bit too sinical(sp?)

[Mann]

I'm a realist not a cynic. I can dream but know them for dreams.

[balefire]

If time travel were possible, why didn't the AOL people undo the opening of the Bore within a few days? They were much more powerful & knowledgeable in the Power than current channelers. I don't think it's possible to travel through time because it wouls tie your thread into some very interesting knots.

[Mann]

Perhaps becuse of similar problems to balefire. No one remembers an action happening (except those who travelled back in time) but the effects of that action happening and all the subsequent actions taking place because of that action would sstill occur; putting the fabric of reality under threat of unravelling.