Why sisters can't be doing it for themselves.

[Piney K]

Here is a small theory on why Nynaeve healed Logain back to full power , but could not do the same for Suian and Leanne . Men are stronger in Fire and Earth . Women in Water and Air . Both are equally strong in Spirit . The connection between someone and the True Source is made of Fire and Spirit in men . In women it is probably Water and Spirit . The clincher though is that the link is made of Saidar in men . Saidin in women . This is why men need women to fully heal them and women need men .
More evidence for this was seen in the cleansing of Saidin by Rand & Nynaeve , the tube that carried the taint from Saidin was made of Saidar .
Sisters can't do it for themselves .

[Judas]

yeah, that will work. i wonder what would happen if suan, or whatever, got stilled again, and then was re-healed by some man. would she go back to her old streingth, or remain at the lower level?

[Jacob]

Hmm....could be it. It does make a kind of "WOT sence" that men would need women and women men etc. The balance of the wheel and all that. And of course, with this, male and female channelers need each other and for the light to win, male and female channelers must work together. Mutual need is great for making such happen.

Oh, and nice choice of words in the subject line....hehe.

[TheDude99]

suian isn't as strong as she used to be in the power, but that doesn't mean she can never be again... perhaps her healing is incomplete and if a man came along to finish healing her, she would reach her full strength again, or become even stronger since she can already touch the source right now

[baxts]

does that then raise the theory that if a man stills a women, ar vice versa, then they can replace the link to the one power witha link not just the same as it was, but bigger, allowing you to channel more than b4??

i reckon that cyndane is lanfear, back from the ter thingy,
(mainly based on the mention in W/H about how the aellfinn and the eelfinn helped her become stronger) and i reckon that thats maybe how they did it.

[Buckweet]

hmm, Im thinking to disagree...although its very sound.

I remember when Nynaeve told the little tower she healed logain, and they made her heal Suian--they told her to do the same exact thing to her as she did to logain...Im thinking that the weave is is slightly different and that it was taylored ofr a guy... Given the chance to delve it all ...she prob could have done a better job.

[supuradam]

here's my theory:
siuan isn't as strong as she used to be, but she doesn't have to be weak forever. when a novice comes to the white tower to start training, she is very weak. maybe, after siuan was healed from being stilled, she sort of started back at level 0. just like a novice, she has to build her power up again. kind of far-fetched, but in the beginning siuan was such an overbearing bitch, i'd just kind of like to see that siuan come back again. :confused:

[Buckweet]

wooooowww...

Nice theory dude,
Very original..Im liking it a lot

Although that doesnt explain Logain,...unless...

[supuradam]

maybe because logain didn't have lots of experience with the power, or at least that's my guess. i'm pretty sure he wasn't a darkfriend (although many would say so because he proclaimed himself the dragon reborn...), so he didn't get tutoring from a forsaken. so my guess is that he sort of taught himself, kind of like rand did in the beginning. and lanfear even told rand that he's something like not even 100th of a 10th of what he could be. so maybe since logain didn't have a lot of experience he never built up his strength, so when nyn healed him, he was right back where he was.

[NOuseFORaNAME]

Originally posted by supuradam
here's my theory:
siuan isn't as strong as she used to be, but she doesn't have to be weak forever. when a novice comes to the white tower to start training, she is very weak. maybe, after siuan was healed from being stilled, she sort of started back at level 0. just like a novice, she has to build her power up again. kind of far-fetched, but in the beginning siuan was such an overbearing bitch, i'd just kind of like to see that siuan come back again. :confused:

Yeah, except sisters can tell how strong someone's potential is, what their limit in the strength of the OP will be. I want to see her back too!

I'm goin with Piney and Jacob on this one. I'ts just tieing Male and Female Aes Sedai together, balancing them out, balancing of the wheel, etc.....

[Byrn]

Wht the situation is, women heal men back to prior strength, men heal women to prior strength. I think his name is Flynn, he healded the stilled sisters that were being held by the wise ones. They are at the strength they were before being stilled.

[Beowulf]

ahhhh, I think I knew that at one time, but don't remember. if that is true, I think it's amazing... I wish RJ weren't such a long winded sluggard now, because I am getting hyped for the new book.

[Lews Therin]

How do we know that Logain was healed back to his normal strength? I mean we never knew his strength before. Unless it says something like he did return to his full strength, and I just missed it.

[Byrn]

Well, nynaeve was hard press to shield him. It oesn't say he healed to full strength, But I do think someone mentions teh women flynn healed did return to theri normal strength. It was mentioned in Winter's heart. I forget where. I have only read that one twice.

[Solmyre]

She needs a man....(and a propper banging, on that accord)

[baxts]

Quote"its as if they'd never been stilled" Maybe not exact wording, but v.close to how one of the aes Sedai described the women that flyn healed. And it took 6 women to sheild logain once he had been healed, nynaeve commented that when logain tried to break her sheild after she healed him, it was like "he wasnt trying to break her sheild, but only stretching muscles that had long been out of use" Again, not quite exact quote, but close enough as makes no differnce. he could of broken her sheild if he had wanted, but it wouldnt have served his purpose, he knew he could never escape from the centre of salidar, so trusted in nynaeve.

both are v. definitely full strength

[epiph]

yeah, even before flynn healed the stilled aes sedai i was figuring that women healed men to the former strength and vice versa. it just makes sense. and i seem to recal that naenaeve DID keep poking at siuan and whats-her-face after she healed them and didn't come up with anything.

[Byrn]

Yeah, Baxts came up with the examples I couldn't. That was what I was trying to say. Maybe I should take some English classes. I can't seem to state my thoughts.

[Demandred]

I remember reading some theory on the old Wotist board, that the reason men can heal women back to full strength but not women healing women is the same reason you don't patch a leaky sink with ice, the mechanism is just too similiar.

[Solmyre]

Well, patching a leaky sink with ice would keep the water out for a bit, untill the ice melted. Healed stilled chicks dont channel strongly for a little, then not at all again. Bad analogy.... leave the Analogies to Epiph, Analogy Master of the Bathtub.

[Relayquin]

I've been in quite a few discussions about this topic, and the idea I have come to support is that Nynaeve just didn't exactly know what she was doing when she healed Siuan and Leane. It was after all the first time she healed stilled female channelers, and indeed the first time in many many many years that someone at all had healed stilled channelers. Is it so strange that she didn't get it exactly right the first time?

The following quote seems to support this:

She felt the joining clearly as she channeled, though she still could not have said what it was she had joined. It felt different than with Logain— it had with Siuan as well— but as she kept telling herself, men and women were different. Light, I'm lucky this works on them as well as it did on him! That brought up an uncomfortable line of speculation. What if some things had to be Healed differently in men than in women? Maybe she did not know so very much more than the Yellows after all.

Lord of Chaos - Chapter 30: To Heal Again

Nynaeve acknowledges that there may be differences between the procedure to heal men and women. That's a Jordan hint if ever I saw one.

[epiph]

i suppose we'd have to see flinn heal a male channeler before we assume that males heal females fully and females heal males fully...but i still maintain that that's the way it is. it just makes massive quantities of sense...there's no need for analogies. after all, we know that the greatest works of the aol where combined men and women, and that it's the play of saidin and saidar against and with the other that turn the wot...it makes sense that saidin would heal saidar and vice versa.

[NOuseFORaNAME]

Exactly my thoughts. It just makes WOT sense, balance of the wheel and everything.

[Relayquin]

Originally posted by epiph
it makes sense that saidin would heal saidar and vice versa.
But that's just the point, isn't it? Saidar does heal Saidar! So you see there's no nice saidar-saidin balance. Your balance is flawed, just as your theory is. :)
I would like so see some quotes that prove that only male channelers can heal female channelers up to the strength they previously had and vice versa. Needless to say, the Siuan/Leane example is not enough.

Nyn just didn't know what she was doing, simple as that.

[epiph]

the only other major evidence is that flinn heals the one aes sedai back to her full strength. we haven't seen any male channelers heal other saidin channelers, so there isn't any conclusive evidence either way. it still makes loads more sense my way, though.

[Relayquin]

Originally posted by epiph
it still makes loads more sense my way, though.
Well, that's what you think.

The only thing you can come up with is a story about keeping the balance, which, if you had read my previous posts, obviously does not apply here.

I have a direct quote that supports my theory. If you know how Jordan writes, then you'll know that that quote I gave is a hint at the true reason for Siuan and Leane's flawed healing.

You'll have to do better, than saying that your theory just "makes loads more sense". :)

[archely]

Okay, i apologize for coming into this discussion late but...

Anyway, to start off, i support the men heal women and women heal men theory, only opposite sex can fully restore.

If i'm understanding correctly, relayquin, your base quote is the bolded part where it says that some things had to be healing differently in men than in women. In response to this, i'd say that the quote doesn't really support either way. Sure, it can be taken like you think, as in Nyn didn't really know what she was doing, but i could also interpret the way that i did originally. Namely, the difference in healing here is that men heal women and women heal men.

Also, it may not be proof, but we have good reason to believe the opposites heal theory with flinn healing women to full and nyn healing men to full, and then nyn not being able to heal women to full. It seems awfully suspicious. Especially since nyn did practice. IIRC (and i may not be, so just shoot me down then) nyn didn't simply try once, she tried more than once and still couldn't do it. Now you not only have to say she didn't know what she was doing, but that she couldn't learn from it either.

Anyway, if your only evidence is the quote, which can be interpreted either way, then i think you need to find some new evidence. Now I've got good cause to believe the opposites heal theory, and no real reason to believe your way.

[epiph]

there is a reason i stick to a keeping the balance theory...because that's the way we've been lead to believe the OP works. the evidence (ie, nyn healing logain fully but not ss and leane, and flinn healing the other aes sedai fully) tends to support this as well...but until we see flinn try to heal men, then we don't know for absolutely sure, and it could be that nyn is incompetent...but nyn isn't usually incompetent.

[Solmyre]

Originally posted by archely
....only sex can fully restore.

Yeah, you know it :D

[Relayquin]

archely, Nyn did experiment on Leane and Siuan before she healed them. However, not once did she even come close to finding out how to heal them. In other words, she didn't find the proper procedure during those experiments, and was therefore lacking in knowledge when she did heal them later.

Logain was her first success, and as far as we know, he was healed back to his former strength.

Nyn then healed Siuan and Leane without pause. This is important. She didn't experiment on Siuan or Leane any further. She didn't stop to think that maybe the procedure might be different for men and women. Nope, she rushed in and healed Siuan and Leane, and it didn't work as expected.

And then, just a few sentences later, she does think about the fact that there might just be different procedures involved. Different weaves most probably. The quote says "had to be healed differently in men and women". The italicized part is important. It tells us that Nyn is thinking of the procedure/weave, not the one who works it.

What does that tell you? How obvious does Jordan have to be? It's really clearcut to me.

Consider this analogy: you have two sets of wooden planks. Both sets are a different type of wood. The planks in both sets used to be firmly attached to eachother, but now they're loose. One set is held together by nails, the other by screws. You're frantically trying to find out how to reattach the planks, concentrating your efforts on the set with the screws. However, you find no solution. Then you have a look at the set with the nails. Suddenly you've got it: you grab a hammer and hammer the nails through the planks. It works! You rush to the other set, and hammer the screws through those planks. Alas, they are attached, but not as firm as before. In your haste, you didn't stop to think whether the same solution would work for both sets of planks.

That is what happened to Nyn. It was a rush job gone wrong, because she applied to solution to the first case to the second, without stopping to think whether she should modify it.

In return, I could ask you to give me any examples of feats using the One Power that women can only accomplish on men and vice versa. Or even two feats of an opposed nature where the one can only be accomplished by women and the other only by men. I ask you to give me a few examples of this balance theory that pertain to the case at hand.

epiph: Nyn not incompetent? How many times did Mat or one of the others have to save her because she ran into some trap? She walked into a trap in Tear, she walked into the trap that Ronde Macura had set for her and Elayne. I really see no reason to assume that Nyn always knows what she does. On the contrary.

[epiph]

my point was that we won't know until we see flinn try to heal a man...or nyn and flinn talk about stuff. not whether or not nyn is incompetent. besides which, i was trying to be funny.

[Solmyre]

Hopefully this will all be cleared in the next book ~crosses his fingers~

[Travis]

~uncrosses sol's fingers~

[Solmyre]

~smashes Travis with his big book and double-crosses his fingers~

[Relayquin]

Originally posted by epiph
my point was that we won't know until we see flinn try to heal a man...or nyn and flinn talk about stuff.

Won't know, or won't see?

besides which, i was trying to be funny.
You failed horribly, which might have something to do with the fact that this is a serious thread and you forgot to use a smiley. ;)

But if it was indeed not meant to be serious, does that mean that "my theory makes loads more sense" is still your strongest argument?

[archely]

Originally posted by Relayquin
archely, Nyn did experiment on Leane and Siuan before she healed them. However, not once did she even come close to finding out how to heal them. In other words, she didn't find the proper procedure during those experiments, and was therefore lacking in knowledge when she did heal them later.

Logain was her first success, and as far as we know, he was healed back to his former strength.

Nyn then healed Siuan and Leane without pause. This is important. She didn't experiment on Siuan or Leane any further. She didn't stop to think that maybe the procedure might be different for men and women. Nope, she rushed in and healed Siuan and Leane, and it didn't work as expected.

And then, just a few sentences later, she does think about the fact that there might just be different procedures involved. Different weaves most probably. The quote says "had to be healed differently in men and women". The italicized part is important. It tells us that Nyn is thinking of the procedure/weave, not the one who works it.

What does that tell you? How obvious does Jordan have to be? It's really clearcut to me.

Consider this analogy: you have two sets of wooden planks. Both sets are a different type of wood. The planks in both sets used to be firmly attached to eachother, but now they're loose. One set is held together by nails, the other by screws. You're frantically trying to find out how to reattach the planks, concentrating your efforts on the set with the screws. However, you find no solution. Then you have a look at the set with the nails. Suddenly you've got it: you grab a hammer and hammer the nails through the planks. It works! You rush to the other set, and hammer the screws through those planks. Alas, they are attached, but not as firm as before. In your haste, you didn't stop to think whether the same solution would work for both sets of planks.

That is what happened to Nyn. It was a rush job gone wrong, because she applied to solution to the first case to the second, without stopping to think whether she should modify it.

In return, I could ask you to give me any examples of feats using the One Power that women can only accomplish on men and vice versa. Or even two feats of an opposed nature where the one can only be accomplished by women and the other only by men. I ask you to give me a few examples of this balance theory that pertain to the case at hand.


Okay, first off, I fail to see how Nyn's experimenting lends support to your argument...all it says to me is that she experimented, and still couldn't do it....you could practice to fly all your life, and still not be able to, you just aren't equipped for it. With Logain, however, she was able to do it. Nyn also tried to heal leane and siuan again, after she had done a poor job of it, and still couldn't restore their complete strength. This second attempt comes after your quote, in which she supposedly thinks it may be different.

Not only that relay, but the emphasis is your own on that quote. As is the assumption that Nyn is talking about weaves/procedures. Time and time again RJ has told us that characters may be mistaken, so even if nyn is thinking about weaves, it doesn't stand to reason that she's right. I mean, you yourself said you think that nyn is hardly competent.

So, it seems that what you really are doing with your interpretation of this quote is making it into an RJ quote, and saying it's a hint from RJ. All i have to say to that is what i said before. If you'd take a step back from your own interpretation for just a second, you'd see that the differences RJ is hinting about here could be the simple difference between men and women is that men are healed by women and women are healed by men. There's a difference for you, and other than you putting your own spin on it, the quote doesn't point either way. By the way, i'm not quite sure how you think that "in men and women" is explicitly referring to weaves anyway, but it doesn't really matter in the end.

As for you analogy, that's fine. But what if the only tool Nyn (or any woman) has is a hammer, and the only tool a man has is a screwdriver? Seems obvious they are going to have a hard time fixing the opposite plank.

As for the balance thing, i don't recall appealing to RJ's sense of balance at all. All i'm doing is simply showing you that your "theory" is merely your interpretation, and is in no way based on facts, thus giving me no solid reason to believe it. In addition, i have good reason to believe the other view, namely, we already have been shown a woman who heals a man to full, a woman who can't heal women to full, and a man who heals women to full. This gives me at least a good reason to believe this theory, where your theory has no grounding.

And while i didn't bring up balance, i'll still defend it....it seems you are conveniently forgetting about the entire nature of saidin and saidar and many other things. Hmm....men are usually stronger in fire and earth, while women are stronger in air and water....balance......saidin and saidar work against each other but at the same time with each other to turn the wheel....balance....even the image selected to represent saidin and saidar, the yin yang thingy, is an image of black balancing white and white balancing black to complete the whole.

[Solmyre]

wow. long post. Good job, from what i read... I just read every first sentence of each paragraph...and the closing sentence too.

[epiph]

and THAT is why i just say it makes more sense, even though i simply cannot argue as well as archely. hehehe, i just get to state my opinion and have someone better at debate defend it for me! sweet!

[Relayquin]

Thanks for your reply, archely. At least you try to defend your view. I'm afraid I have no time to respond right now, but I'll get back to you later.

[Piney K]

I thought this debate on saidar healing saidar was settled at the end of WH . Rand drags the taint from saidin through a weave of saidar (drawn from Nynaeve) , he states that a weave of saidin would not hold the taint . This is exactly the same method by which channelers are connected to the True Source , males via saidar , females via saidin . This is the reason that a persons ability to channel can only be restored by a healer (and an exceptionally gifted one at that) of the opposite sex . The minimal return of power if performed on someone of the same sex is akin to giving someone a tool they are not able to use effectively whilst they can achieve a little using it , their soul's are geared to use something different and cannot return to full potential .

[epiph]

i didn't catch that in WH, but that's simply beautiful.