What happened down at the docks .

[Piney K]

This theory is only really circumstantial in nature . It does however tie into what we intuitively know of people's personalities . It relates to what I think has been the most important moment in the series , the "death" of Moiraine and Lanfear in the ter'angreal . I have not seen it on any of the boards I am familiar with so I hope it gives you something to think on .
Firstly what happened , Moiraine pushes Lanfear through the doorway into Eelfinnland . All we know of what has happened is from Lan's reaction and Moiraines letter to Rand , and what we can deduce from Mat's experience through the doorway .
After the event all Lan says is "She is gone" , to my mind this means one of three things .
1) She is dead . :( (Not the case as I will show later)
2) She released his bond and he has mistaken this for her death . (Possibly to stop him trying to follow her .
3) She releases his bond and he knows either from her telling him beforehand , or working it out himself . :) . I think this is probably the case , Lan is crying not for her death but the loss .
All it says in the letter is "... and I am gone . . ." Moiraine cannot lie this is why she could not write "I am dead" . She is alive in the land of the Eelfinn .
When Rand and Mat were in the ter'angreal in Tear they never once saw each other in there. I think that Lanfear and Moiraine were seperated in the ter'angreal , and Lanfear with her knowledge of the AOL escaped quickly , the Eelfinn seem to take from you in payment whatever you hold dearest . In Mat's case this was his life . In Lanfears it is her strength and her beauty . She reemerges into the world as Cyndane and is probably quickly collared by Moridin .
Moiraine on the otherhand has only fragments to go by , she knows that they are tricksome . She is also Cairhenian and well versed in Daes Daemar . Perhaps her first wish was "I want to know how I can survive this meeting" . Her second was to be able to kill Asmodean .
At the end of TFoH Rand's closest advisors are Moiraine and Aviendha . He also spends a lot of his time with Jasin Natael , it states in the book , as much time as he spent practicing the sword with Lan or fighting without weapons with Rhuarc . Moiraine knows this , it can be gleaned from the letter to Rand that she also knows if not who , at least what he is . A Forsaken .
Moiraine could stomach having Asmodean around Rand as long as she was there to balance any influence he might have . But I doubt she would tolerate it if she was not there .
When Asmodean dies , we have few direct clues to who the killer is , we have his final act . "You , no . . . " . This suggests to me that although Asmodean recognised his killer he was only suprised to see them , it was only when he realised they were there to kill him that fear took him . Had it been any of the other Forsaken he would have immediately known what was going to happen and been terrified from the start .
The second thing we know is that he was simply wandering around looking for wine . How could anyone know where to find him? Moiraine with her wish would have circumvented a major problem , any other assassin would have to deal with . On top of that she is the only one I can think of that Asmodean would not be afraid of straight off , and still be suprised to see .

[Berk]

Besides from the fact I am 100% sure Graendal killed Asmodean, let's assume for the sake of argument that it was Moiraine.

So, she kills Asmodean, and then....dissapears for the next 4 books, approximately 3 - 4 months in Randland time.

Why? And, why would she kill Asmo after telling Rand, she understands, that it might be necessary?

I agree she isn't dead, but I disagree totally on your theory. Sorry.


However, one question I have always had:

The wagonloads of angreal that were at the dock to be sent to Tar Valon have not been talked about again. Were they sent? Are they still in Cairhien? Am I going insane? What's my favorite color? What's my quest? What's the air speed velocity of an unladen swallow?

Come to think of it. Thats's a few questions I had.

[Archbishop]

That theory is amazingly similar to one I posted a few months ago at the .org site. I also believe that it was Moiraine that killed Asmodean. Her's why:

1) Moiraine understands why he took Asmodean as his teacher, but Rand is becoming very proficient in his use of the Power. Thus, he no longer needs Asmodean as a teacher, and she is unaware of the fact that Rand cut him off from the Dark One. This can be deduced from her words:

"Lastly, be wary too of Master Jasin Natael. I cannot approve wholly, but I understand. Perhaps it was the only way. Yet be careful of him. He is the same man now that he always was. Remember that always."

Her use of the past tense ("was the only way" rather than "is the only way") betrays the fact that she thinks Mr. Jasin Natael has outlived his usefulness. Also, she would not want Asmodean to gain any amount of influence with Rand due to his intimate link with the Dark One ("the same man now that he always was"). Both of these signs provide a motive for Moiraine to kill him.

2) The similarities in the way in which Asmodean's death scene occurs when compared to that of Be'lal are striking. His words are simply,"You? No!" and the scene afterwards is described as: "The word still hung in the air when death took him." The scene of Be'lal's death occcured as follows:

"There was an instant of surprise on the Forsaken's face, and he had time to scream "No!" Then a bar of white fire hotter than the sun shot from the Aes Sedai's hands... ....Be'lal became a shape of shimmering motes, specks dancing in the light for less than a heartbeat, flecks consumed beforehis cry faded."

In both cases the Forsaken show the same reactions, first surprise at Moiraine's presence, second fear of what is about to happen. The lingering death cries in both scenes seem to be an added hint IMO. I believe RJ made them this way intentionally, so that the killer would be "obvious."

[Berk]

i think the similarity between the scenes was to show you that balefire was used by both.

the words hung in the air in both scenes.

[Wolfbrother13]

Piney K- While I have no real opinion about your explanation of what happenned to Moiraine, I definitely disagree with your theory of what happenned to Lanfear.
Here's my theory-

She was stilled and killed by Moiraine. After being rewoven by the Dark One as Cyndane, she met Moghedien, who had been at the rebel Aes Sedai camp when Nynaeve learned to Heal severing. She then Healed Cyndane, but because the women hadn't learned to fully Heal stilling, she regained only a fraction of her former strength, much like Siuan and Leane. She was then turned over to Moridin for having failed the DO, the same as Moghedien.

[Cypher]

According to what I understand of stilled healing is that only a male can fully heal a female and vice versa.

This happening when Nyn heals Logain and when she tries on Siuan, but only gives Siuan like 1/3 of her strength in the OP back.

[TheDude99]

what is the arguement why gaendal kill asmodan? i'm sorry i'm new, so i don't know... if you could give it to me in a quick version i'd be thankful.
and now, if i may propose: i think that the theory about Lanfear getting her beauty and power reduced is good... but don't you think she might have been killed inside the doorway like Mat was? and then she was resurected by the DO, who put limits on her by reducing her strength and beauty so that he'd have more control over her b/c she was such a loose cannon as Lanfear... i disagree with her being healed by Moghedien b/c she probably hasn't learned the secret of healing being stilled... however, i may be wrong about Lanfear being killed in the doorway and being brought back b/c the theory about the Eelfinn taking her strength in the OP and her beauty is a good one.
i agree with berk on the moiraine killing asmodan... why would she kill him and then vanish for the next couple of books, still yet to return by the end of winter's heart? i do agree that she's still alive b/c she was the gandalf like figure and he didn't die after the encounter w/ the balrog in the Fellowship when everyone thought he was gone... so if you follow that theory, she can't be dead b/c she was gandalf's parallel and she'll come back, but since she's not dead, what did she hold most sacred that the Eelfinn took from her?
sorry for the long post, but this thread was good and raised a lot of questions
take care ya'll!

[Elayne Sedai]

I think that it was someone who used the true power.

[Urbal T]

I suppose it's possible moiraine could've severed Lanfear (almost typed lanfaer there...). The Chosen do not expect physical resistance out of a weilder of the power (remember when Nynaeve managed to shield Moghedian?). This could also mean that the Asha'man will be a pretty good force against the Chosen.

--Ted

[Tom Bombadil]

Has anyone truley considered what the Eelfinn would take from Moraine? What has been the most important thing in her life?

She has devoted 20 years of her life to the quest for the Dragon Reborn. Maybe her sacrifice has been that she can no longer have control over Rand. This could explain some of the questions people have about her disaperence. Maybe one of her wish's that came true is to kill Asmodean. And maybe Thom, with his knowledge of the game of houses, will find some sort of loop hole in this agreement that will bring her back into the story.

Just a half-arsed theory, feel free to shoot me down in flames.

[Aragorn]

It was Moridin, who is actually Rand. (I have a whole all-encompassing theory that I'm not gonna get into right here)

[nightfairy]

I think this is a very interesting thread. Bully to Piney for starting it. :) And Tom, I like you're thoughts. Very interesting. Hmmm. ~Ponders off into the sunset~

[Aragorn]

"bully"?

[Berk]

moiraine had already lost control of Rand in book 5.

[Judas]

i think that the most important thing that moraine had was her influence on rand. she did lose a large amount of controll, but, if thought about, rand was alway's the one who tested the bounds of her controll, always the one that was stubborn, so she didn't really have that much controll. she did have influence though. she was a trusted adviser (in the end) and he actually started feeling protective. i dunno, i am just rambiling(and i can't spell worth beans). i have no clue who killed asmodean though.

[Kiri]

I agree with Tom in that possibly the most important thing to Moiraine was to ensure Rand fulfilled his destiny. Her control over Rand may have decreased however she was always an Aes Sedai at heart, manipulative and resourceful. Moiraine did maintain some form of control not only on Rand, but on other events unto the end.

Did she actually go through the terangreal into the Eelfinn's world, or did she manage to go somewhere else? As I remember it the world was falling a part due to Mat and Rand, being there at the same time. Was it still there in one piece when Lanfear and Moiraine fell through the terangreal? These Eelfinn's were rather nasty compared to the other terangreal.

What happened when Lanfear fell through? As I remember the Forsaken could not enter the terangreal as their presence would have been too disruptive to the Eelfinn's world.

What is the key to freeing Moiraine from her entrapment? Perhaps it will be Tom Bombadil and perhaps not?

Ahhhh....so many questions and so little answers. That's the beauty of the series.

PS. Forgive me for any mis-spellings. It's been some time since I've read the series, and I think I'm due for another reading.

Cheers from downunder.

[Abraxas77]

Perhaps the eelfin have placed Moraine far away from Rand, such as Seanchan. She has not learned to Travel so she therefore looses her tie to Rand. We may see her once Traveling becomes more known, and it will inevitably.