Lord Luc (possible spoilers)

[Urbal T]

I'm new to this forum. Has anybody discussed Lord Luc? Tigraine had a brother named Luc who disappeared into the blight. See a connection, anybody? Please post any comments, questions, or criticism!!

--Urbal T

[Aldebaran]

I don't know if this has been discussed in the forum (most likely it has, or on the .org board), but it's pretty clear by the end of WH that TEFKALI (The entity formerly known as luc isam) are an amalgamation of the souls of Luc and Isam into one body ( most likely luc due to his description from his time in Two Rivers)

Slayer aka Isam description from perrin's view, and also from nynaeve's ter'angreal testing, or tel'arhanoid visit match what we assume lan's cousin isam would look like.

Luc, from his physical description in two rivers, and from his description in WH, when egwene calls him Rand's mean uncle, is probably Tigraine's brother. (also rand's bloodfather, whatsisname, was killed by some guy in the blight who looked like Shaiel)


I think the real question here is if Luc is a "spy" of sorts, still working for the light. Yes, isam does comment that neither he nor luc get to kill an Aes Sedai very often, but then again, if some old hag aes sedai made your sister, the QUEEN! vanish into the aiel waste, and then told you to go into the blight, you would be pissed off at Aes Sedai too :mad:

[Urbal T]

I've also noticed that Luc is a lot like Fain..

[Jacob]

Errr...working for the light?? Uh-oh! He tries to kill Rand and Min at one time, remember? I do gather that there is a FainThing with him. I.e. that he's been touched by the DO directly (taken to the pit of doom) and during that episode, the DO played a game of "Mad scientist" with him and Isam's soul (which he had in stock after Isam's death..since Isam was a DF).


Note to self: Create a boardgame called "Mad Scientist". Become Filthy Rich Guy.

[Tinkers Sword]

Luc/Isam is a paradox - he can chose who he will be when stepping from Tel' to the real word (and visa versa). Originally I thought that only Isam could exist in Tel' and Luc in Randland. But WH showed us otherwise.

So heres the paradox Luc exists but he does not exist when Isam exists , they both share each others memories but do not exist in the same physical body or time, i.e. they don't exist simultaneously.

I think Luc/Isam is a great example of how powerful the DO is.
It truly portrays him as being the creator/master of paradox and chaos he is completey outside Randland physics and the physics of the OP.

[Larkin]

What if Rand and LTT are related to each other the same way that Luc and Isam are. If LTT takes over Rand's body while Rand is in TWOD, will LTT step out of the gateway with his own body and Rand stuffed in his head?

How would that effect the Warder bond(s).

I'ld trade LTT for Rand in a heartbeat. Rand suffer's a fate worse than death and LTT can blow himself up again. What could be better.

[magatsu17]

I don't think Luc and Isam share a body, but are some how combined into one body. The only thing that changes about it is the body but not the mind.

[Tinkers Sword]

It's a tricky one to visualise, yes one phyical form for two people but I don't think they share the same mind, from what we have seen they don't converse with one another only share each others memories, they don't even SHARE the same body - eg say Isam is in control then he exists for a time then when Luc takes control of the physical form Isam ceases to exist until he is again in control.

It may seem a cotradiction but think on it - I'm not saying I'm right but a paradox is a whoer to understand!

[Urbal T]

After reading all of this, I think that they share the same thread, but not the same body or mind. Memories, I guess, get recorded onto the thread. This both explains Mat's memories and is a symbol of the Great Lord's true power.

By the way, why don't people call him the Great Lord like they did on wotism.org?

--Ted

[R'eon]

no-one calls it/him the Great Lord for the same reason no-one looks into a mirror and says "Candyman Candyman Candyman"

[Elayne Sedai]

:confused: Wait a moment, I thought that Luc died a long time ago. In TGH on page 105 and 106 they say
"Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom
Isam waited in the high passes.
The hunt is now begun. The Shadows hounds now
course, and kill
One did live, and one did die, but both are.
The time of change has come."

Did they not just say that one died?
Isam died in the blight, and was brought back to life through Luc's body, who was taken to the Pit of Doom, so it could be done. I beleave that when they say that both are, they mean that Isam( Lans cousin) just looks like Luc(Rands Uncle) in the waking world. In the dream world he is free to look like himself.


By the way whatever happend to Isam/Luc?

[Urbal T]

Elayne, RJ writes his books pretty realistically, so characters who say things could be wrong. He stuck in Min's viewings and Aes Sedai Fortelling to provide some truth to hang on to. One may have died, but we do not know who (unless one of us is Robert Jordan in disguise). In any case, we all know that the Great Lord rules death, so what does it matter that one died? Actually, death is probably used as a sign that the Great Lord did something Mad-Scientist-esque.

R'eon, are you trying to imply that us .org-ers look into mirrors and say "Candyman, Candyman, Candyman" often?

[Elayne Sedai]

Urbal T ,
I was just trying to see things from a different point of view. I don't think(unless I just don't remember)that Luc himself was ever bad, but that Isam took over his body, which made him seem bad. A lot of people here think that they both switch off, but we never saw anyside which would seem to be from Luc himself, so I don't think that they can switch off. I'm not saying that they won't or haven't, but I don't think they can, because I don't beleave that Luc is alive. I could be wrong on this whole thing. Like when they say, 'One did live, and one did die, but both are.' How could they both be, if one of them died? I for one would like it very much so if Luc were still alive, but I'm not sure if he is.
I think the whole thing gets very confusing, with all of the people that the Dark One keeps bringing back. It seems that our heroes have it even harder then they thought. They don't even know that there foes keep coming back.

[Tinkers Sword]

No, No, No, No, No.

Sorry but I have to disagree Elayne Sedai.
Please read the end of "Out Of Thin Air" in WH.
Isam/Luc are shown here to have completely seperate personalities and memories.

[Urbal T]

Elayne, I'm sorry if I was rude in that previous post, I was just trying to point out something. Not to say that I'm justifyied for being rude, but just that I didn't mean to be. I don't know if Luc is bad or not, I started this thread because i realised that Luc was Rand's uncle while re-reading The Eye of the World. I personally think that Luc is a darkfriend, but I don't know.

Tinker's Sword, what specifically happens in that chapter?

[Elayne Sedai]

Urabal T, I don't think that you were being rude, you were just trying to state what you thought. I don't disagree with anyone here. Anything and everything is possible with this series,so know one really knows what will or won't happen next.
Sorry I might snap anyones head off. My kitty cat died the other day, and I'm really broken hearted about it.:(




I looked up " Out Of Thin Air", and WOW I didn't remember this part at all! I think you are right now, as much as I hate to admit it.(Sorry I hate it when I'm wrong. My whole family is pretty stubborn.) And I know now that Luc is a darkfriend. I....ah..I guess.. your all....correct.;)

[Urbal T]

Elayne, I apologize for a similar reason. My family has been very stressed out recently, and I, being the brother of three sisters, bear much of their stress. I've been pretty snappy recently too. In addition to that, I am --insert adjectival word for providing unwanted help here-- (agh, never can remember vocab when it finally comes in handy).

What <i>did</i> happen in Out of Thin Air anyway? Everybody is talking about how meaningful it is, but I don't have access to the books; I borrow them from a friend, and I recently moved 2 hours away from him... (I guess I'm gonna have to pay for the next book out of my own pocket... wait a minute -- the campus bookstore... Mwa ha ha!!!)

[Elayne Sedai]

Hey Urbal T,
LOL, U got nothing to apologize for, your cool. Having siblings problems? I gotta deal with that all the time.:)
In the chapter out of thin air, we all find out that Luc/Isam both are alive and two different people. Nothing really big happens though. Isam starts out in the in Tel'aran'rhiod (in person) he steps out of the dream world and becomes Luc. When he is out into the waking world, he kills two people, and steps back into the dream world, and meets with what they say Must be one of the chosen. Luc tells the chosen that he killed the two people in the waking world(though they are the wrong ones) and asks if he should try again. The chosen say's maybe some other time and gives a warning not to tell anyone about what had just happend. Luc is a bit bummed, because he looks forward to killing Rand and his wench. Then turns back into Isam, so he can go kill wolves.

I had forgotten about that whole part, untill Tinkers Sword reminded me. Anyway thats what pretty much happend.

[Urbal T]

Thanks, Elayne. Now, this raises the question of <i>which</i> wench? He was with Min at the time, right? I think that's who they're talking about; the Chosen generally know what's going on in the world.

I guess that about wraps up this thread, unless anybody has anything else to say...

--Ted

[Tinkers Sword]

Before we rap it up, I'd also like to say sorry to you Elayne Sedai for disagreeing so strongly with you - no need for it :(
But still its great to see everyone gettin along.

Anyway maybe somebody has a few ideas as to who that Forsaken was instructing Luc/Isam. That was a pretty unique trick he used ie making Isam/Luc's eyes want to slide way from him/her & creating a blurred image of themselves.

[Urbal T]

The main questions are who could do a weave like that, who would do a weave like that (aka whose style is it) and who would give LucIsam those orders.

[Elayne Sedai]

Hey guys! I'm ok, really.
You guys are so sweet. I was being a bit demanding though.
I really dont know who did it. Did anyone ever do that slide trick before? And if so, who?

[Urbal T]

I suppose Sammael and Demandred have the incentive, but it doesn't seem like their way of attack. Sammael was a strategist, and Demandred I believe would favor a head-on attack... I don't know, I keep wanting to say Mesanna because she hasn't done too much... or maybe Semirhage... but the sliding trick seems a lot like compulsion, which is Graendall's domain...

Has anybody bothered to count up all of the "ae's" yet?

--Ted

[TimGoldenboots]

Originally posted by Tinkers Sword
Please read the end of "Out Of Thin Air" in WH.
Isam/Luc are shown here to have completely seperate personalities and memories.

A question about that section. How many people are aware of Rand's true liniage? As far as we know, the people in the mainland of Randland know him as The Dragon Reborn born in Andor and raised in the Two Rivers. and the Aiel view him as child of Shaiel who came from the wetlands but became a Mainden of the spear.
Only Rand has made the connection to his mother's true identity that we have seen... at least until that chapter when Slayer makes the comment about wanting to kill his nephew.
So evidently Luc/Isam made the connection as well, so how many other people know of Rand's link to the thrown of Andor?

[wingo]

The thing I never understood was why the person who told Tigraine to go to the waster because it was necessary to defeat the DO, why did they send Luc to the Blight? Why was it necessary for him to go into the blight and for him to become slayer. For this foretelling to come true I think he needs to have some greate purpose for the light in the end - After all he was sent to the blight for the same reason Tigraine was sent to the waste right?

[Illustrious]

Originally posted by Urbal T
I suppose Sammael and Demandred have the incentive
--Ted
Sammael was slain by Rand, remember? He wasn't ressurected. :dozey:

Surely it was Moridin . . .

Light, how many apologies is that? Any one in here missing a backbone?

[GWINNA]

Originally posted by wingo
The thing I never understood was why the person who told Tigraine to go to the waster because it was necessary to defeat the DO, why did they send Luc to the Blight? Why was it necessary for him to go into the blight and for him to become slayer. For this foretelling to come true I think he needs to have some greate purpose for the light in the end - After all he was sent to the blight for the same reason Tigraine was sent to the waste right?
So that Rand's father would be dead and didn't unite the Aeil so Rand could do it, maybe he'll become more important latter on as well.

[SoulAegis]

Right 'O then... Luc was taken to the Pit of Doom and Isam's soul was put into him or something of the sort, right? Well, who does that remind you of? A certain pair of Forsaken reborn called Aran'gar/Osan'Gar? Perhaps they share memories and such with their hosts much in the way that Luc and Isam do in Slayer?

[GWINNA]

I think it was slightly diffrent for the forsaken. From what we've seen it doesn't seem to be so, I think Luc/Isam has both souls while the others just have one.

[Reuvyn]

Maybe it was moghedian She is an expert at TAR
Maybe it was mesana she disguised when w/ Alviarin


moghedian may want nyn and elayne dead and those are the Two they are talking about


One sec Rand's Uncle is Luc who is Lan's cousin?
that makes Rand related to LAN and Nynaeve!
One big happy family.

[Buckweet]

Originally posted by reuvyn

One sec Rand's Uncle is Luc who is Lan's cousin?
that makes Rand related to LAN and Nynaeve!
One big happy family.



Just because Luc and Isam are one and the same now, that does not make Lan and Rand family.... although Luc/Isam person is related to both in a way.;)

[sven]

I would appreciate a little clarification on exactly who isam is. I know who he is currently in his juxtaposed state but I don't remember his exact lineage to lan.

[sven]

I hate not owning the books anymore

[astraea]

Isam is Lan's cousin. Lan's father, al'Lan Mandragoran had a brother, Lain Mandragoran, who had a son, Isam.
Lan's mother was el'Leanna Breyan... but from looking at some old scrawl I've written here it seems to say that she is Isam's mother too... making them half-brothers... but that may be a very big mistake.

[GWINNA]

Originally posted by astraea
Isam is Lan's cousin. Lan's father, al'Lan Mandragoran had a brother, Lain Mandragoran, who had a son, Isam.
Lan's mother was el'Leanna Breyan... but from looking at some old scrawl I've written here it seems to say that she is Isam's mother too... making them half-brothers... but that may be a very big mistake.
Yeah, I realy don't think they're half-brothers, i could look it up, but thats accurate enough.