Dark One & Shadar Logoth

[Dancing_Dead]

This is less of a real theory, more of an open call for theories on something that's been bugging me.

The Dark One is the embodiment of nastiness, right? All evil deeds feed into him, all good deeds detract from him. His goal is nothing less than the destruction and twisted re-making of all of Randland.

Why is it that Shadar Logoth and the nastiness theirin does not serve the Dark One?

It would make sense to say that the evil in Shadar Logoth might occasionally kill the Dark One's minions - it is an unfocused evil originally intended to be used against the Dark One - but if the Dark One really is the embodiment of all the evil in Randland, wouldn't the evil in Shadar Logoth just be a weird, schizoid part of him?

[flyingdutchman]

No.













well idunnow! just doesn't feel right.




I know! SL is after destruction and revenge, DO seeks power! Definite difference!

[balefire]

Originally posted by Dancing_Dead
The Dark One is the embodiment of nastiness, right? All evil deeds feed into him, all good deeds detract from him. His goal is nothing less than the destruction and twisted re-making of all of Randland.

Why is it that Shadar Logoth and the nastiness theirin does not serve the Dark One?

It would make sense to say that the evil in Shadar Logoth might occasionally kill the Dark One's minions - it is an unfocused evil originally intended to be used against the Dark One - but if the Dark One really is the embodiment of all the evil in Randland, wouldn't the evil in Shadar Logoth just be a weird, schizoid part of him?

I think the Shadar Logoth evil clashes with the Shadow because they have different sources. Mashadar resulted from Mordeth, but the Shadow derived from the Dark One. Evil is like 2 negative numbers; multiply them together & they become positive, whereas good is self-augmenting ie. 2 +ve nos. multiplied still gives you +ve. Look at how the Forsaken compete with each other to become Nae'blis. Not surprising that they could very well destroy each other. On the other hand, I don't see how Elayne would ever kill Rand just to fulfil some Aes Sedai goal, hmm?

[Pope Trevor]

Two different types of evil don't get along, just like two types of good don't get along.

Shadar Logoth is aiming for a different thing than the Dark One.

Just like the Whitecloaks are trying to win the last battle, but don't get along with the Aes Sedai. The Aes Sedai are also, ultimately trying to do good, but they don't get along with each other even. And Whitecloaks, or Aes Sedai, get along with Rand.

All three of these groups have a different version of how good should win. just like Shadar Logoth and the Dark One have a different version of how good should be destroyed.

[balefire]

Originally posted by Pope Trevor
Two different types of evil don't get along, just like two types of good don't get along.

Shadar Logoth is aiming for a different thing than the Dark One.

Just like the Whitecloaks are trying to win the last battle, but don't get along with the Aes Sedai. The Aes Sedai are also, ultimately trying to do good, but they don't get along with each other even. And Whitecloaks, or Aes Sedai, get along with Rand.

All three of these groups have a different version of how good should win. just like Shadar Logoth and the Dark One have a different version of how good should be destroyed.

I don't think Whitecloaks & Aes Sedai count as "good", even though the Shadow & Mashadar are definitely evil. When you get down to it, nobody is really "good".

[Pope Trevor]

Sure Aes Sedai and Whitecloaks are good.

They are trying to fight against the DO to save the world.

And yeah, they're not 'completly' good, they are doing what they do for their own reasons, but they are fighting for the side of 'good', agianst the DO.

[balefire]

Originally posted by Pope Trevor
Sure Aes Sedai and Whitecloaks are good.

They are trying to fight against the DO to save the world.

And yeah, they're not 'completly' good, they are doing what they do for their own reasons, but they are fighting for the side of 'good', agianst the DO.

I think the correct term is "self-interest". When you get down to it, everyone joins the fight for/against the Dark One for entirely self-serving reasons. Very few do so for exactly Light/Dark reasons eg.Moiraine, Rand, Moridin.

[Running Wolf]

What about Galad? He joined Whitecloaks based on his principles.Not just a self serving reason.

I think that the main "good" characters, fight for the greater "sense" of good/light. Rand, Mat, Perrin grew up as country boys, scared by the stories of the DO growing up. They fight for the light/greater good that They beleive in. Being human, they are fallible though, but their errors do not negate that which they fightfor, imo.
Rand doesnt strive against the DO for a primarily selfish purpose. He beleives that DO is real, and will destroy the world. And he beleives he must stop it, in very generic terms im speaking.
Sure he has self interests( 3 women at once, :cool: many men have dreamed, Few have seen the truth. ;)
but he has a greater purpose in mind.
Perrin is a great example of self sacrifice for what he thinks is right.His defense of his home town and general humility speak of that.
You could hardly say that Perrin is out for just himself.
On the other hand, imo, Everyone on the dark side is motivated by Self. Its all about power on the dark side.Scheming for favor and power from the DO.
Ironically, the prob with Aes Sedai is that the have been All Powerful for so long, that many of them are corrupt. All older Aes Sedai are under more suspicion for that reason imo. But i speak in generalities, there are always exceptions.

[GWINNA]

For the same reason Lex Luthor and the Joker don't get along is the best I can do. I also don't think anything purly evil can exist because existance itself is good so anything purly evil would destroy itself.

[Jacob]

Ah, a "nature of Evil" discussion...

I donno, I sorto like Gwinna's explanation:) The way I see them though, is perhaps abit like the differance between Sauruman and Sauron (LotR): They are not really the same KIND of evil. Actually, I have this idea about the DO, that he's not really "evil" as such at all. I.e. I don't think that his goal really is to "do evil". Or maybe it is, in a way. Hmm....the DO sometimes seems like mainly a thing of Chaos where the ultimate goal is (to use a quote) to clear the rubble so that something new can be built. (DO world). Shadar Logoth...hmm...well, it's abit like Sauruman, it's evil consists in total and utter corruption of what once were. It's hope and good abandoned where there is only hate and revenge (against all) left, leading to "the tactics of the scorched earth" against the DO?

[balefire]

Originally posted by Running Wolf
What about Galad? He joined Whitecloaks based on his principles.Not just a self serving reason.

I think that the main "good" characters, fight for the greater "sense" of good/light. Rand, Mat, Perrin grew up as country boys, scared by the stories of the DO growing up. They fight for the light/greater good that They beleive in. Being human, they are fallible though, but their errors do not negate that which they fightfor, imo.
Rand doesnt strive against the DO for a primarily selfish purpose. He beleives that DO is real, and will destroy the world. And he beleives he must stop it, in very generic terms im speaking.
Sure he has self interests( 3 women at once, :cool: many men have dreamed, Few have seen the truth. ;)
but he has a greater purpose in mind.
Perrin is a great example of self sacrifice for what he thinks is right.His defense of his home town and general humility speak of that.
You could hardly say that Perrin is out for just himself.
On the other hand, imo, Everyone on the dark side is motivated by Self. Its all about power on the dark side.Scheming for favor and power from the DO.
Ironically, the prob with Aes Sedai is that the have been All Powerful for so long, that many of them are corrupt. All older Aes Sedai are under more suspicion for that reason imo. But i speak in generalities, there are always exceptions.

I did point out that there are people who fight for the Light against the Shadow for purely moral reasons, albeit very few. I include the 3 ta'veren & Moiraine here. Galad is just a bad case of a Light-blinded, misguided fool. Aes Sedai, being what they are, obviously are out, except for Moiraine. Some Asha'man probably have ideas of glory & domination after the Last Battle, so they're off the list as well. Egwene & Elayne, sadly are probably tainted by political/Aes Sedai interest. Nynaeve probably doesn't give a biteme about such crap; her ultimate fantasy is to Heal severing & death all over Randland, the Aiel Waste, Shara, the Aryth Ocean & Seanchan, not to mention steddings(!!)


I've got something to say about what GWINNA & Jacob posted, but considering what happened the last time, I'm better off forgoing that.

[Mann]

Think of it as thje difference between chaos ansd law. Both can be evil but opposite. Incidenatally there are no true absolutes (possibly the DO and Creator) in life.

[balefire]

Originally posted by Mann
Think of it as thje difference between chaos ansd law. Both can be evil but opposite. Incidenatally there are no true absolutes (possibly the DO and Creator) in life.

There're no true absolutes for good & evil because these are subjective qualities. There are stereotypes, which the DO seems to embody eg. death, rats, crows, shadows, night. These things are natural & can't be descibed as good or evil, but they have been stereotyped in human minds as "bad", so the DO governs that. The DO seems to be everything we think of as "evil" so it's no wonder he "let the Lord of Chaos rule" & as Verin pointed out, he's the embodiment of self-contradiction, destruction & chaos, although these can't be really considered "evil".

[Mann]

Are you proposing the DO and Creator are embodiments or projections of the human psche? Traditionally evil and chaos are not the same though.

[flyingdutchman]

duh!

It's all a projection!

[balefire]

Originally posted by Mann
Are you proposing the DO and Creator are embodiments or projections of the human psche? Traditionally evil and chaos are not the same though.

I didn't say that the damned DO is created by Randland psyches. I'm just pointing out the fact that the DO has control over stereotypical "evil" such as the night, death, creatures that feed on death like rats & crows. Some people view chaos as a bad thing, & hence the DO supports it. If the DO had never been opened to the Pattern such things would not be "evil". Crows & rats are just part of the natural world, right?

Moiraine pointed out that the DO's influence is weakest when the sun is out (another case of stereotyped "good") in book 1. But we all know too much sun gives sunburn & skin cancer.

You get my drift now?

[Mann]

I see where you're coming from. But what about situational morals where the same action can be different depending on the circumstances or because of someones personal interpretation of it.

[balefire]

Originally posted by Mann
I see where you're coming from. But what about situational morals where the same action can be different depending on the circumstances or because of someones personal interpretation of it.

Yep, nothing in life is strictly "good" or "evil". We all hate death, but it's not necessarily a bad thing. However this is disgressing from the main point. I was applying all those stereotypes to the DO, which for some reason works.

[Larkin]

Dark One & Shadar Logoth

The main connection between the DO and Shadar Logoth is Fain/M/O (painfully obvious).

Fain's soul got "imprinted" (not a quote) with all sorts of good things from the DO.

Fain then got body snatched by Mordeth.

And finally, something must have happened in the Ways (hense third name Wormwood=rotting sickness=Machin Shin).

What happens to Fain now that Shadar Logoth is gone.

Look at it, Fian/M/O represents the three major injuries that Rand suffers from. The wound from the DO, the cut from the dagger, the slight case of "madness." He also represents the three main symbols of evil corruption in the world (not to mention some smaller ones), Dragon tied to the land and the land to him and all that, the evil from S.L., the taint of the DO (think more along the lines of the DO's touch than the OP), and the darkness inside the ways.

If the Machin Shin thing seems like a stretch, consider how Fain acted in the beginning, he had to be forced through the ways by the DO's influence and scarred spittless when he got out (Far Dara), but in tGH, not only is he comfortable using the ways, but Machin Shin guards the Waygates like a watchdog.

Before the Taint was removed and Shadar Logoth was still there, Fain was working apart from the Shadow (had different objectives from Luc/Isam, spite Al'thor vs. preventing Perrin from coming to power). Now that S.L. is gone, will he still be seperate from the Shadow. The two remaining evils in F/M/O both derive from the DO, S.L did too, kinda.

A number of theories, some might be here, say that the LB might be fought between Fain and Rand. (That is hard to beleive with the Ishi/LTT saga going on inperpetual) But what makes it intresting is you have Ishi consolidating the coorperation, Fain spreading Chaos (undeniable, and reminisent of book six), Luc/Isam doing his thing whatever that is, and Rand, Mat, and Perrin doing the same on the other side. RJ does love ballance (Ignor Shadar Haran for the moment, he sorta like the Golumn, somthing new for flavor, comic releif with a twist)

So does Fain/M/O fight Morridin or does he fight Rand? Maybe Rand can sit the last battle out??? Probably not, he's still going to die.