The Prophet has forsaken us.

[Abraxas77]

Last night, in my second reading of The Path of Daggers I found that our chaotic, mad, chosen Prophet of the Dragon to be most sane. I fear a certain male Forsaken has an unseen blow, aimed and ready for the Dragon Reborn.

In Tangles, where Perrin meets with the six Wise Ones accompanying him in Ghealdan, Delora says, "This Masema Dagar is a danger to the Car'a'carn. He must die." Carelle continues, "The dreamwalkers have told us, Perrin Aybara." (Page 214) Certainly the Forsaken must die.

If you will recall the prologue to aCoS, the Dark One praises this same male Forsaken for his success in the Lord of Choas' command, and told him to continue. Dragonsworn ravaging western and southern Randland (and then some) is a major pain for the side of the light. Masema has done his fair share of chaos creation.

Suroth (Graendal?-I'll need another post to explain that) terrifies the west while the Prophet wreaks havoc in the south, and Rand has no control in either. Remember the prophesy, “The north shall he tie to the east, and the west shall be bound to the south.” This means Rand controls the north and east, while the Forsaken dominate the west and south. Graendal reveals Damendred’s location by saying she knows of his dealings in the south (this was in LoC, I’d find the quotation if I had the book with me). Masquerading as Suroth, she would know this since she must have conspired with Damendred. The dragonsworn prepared the west and south for the Corenne.

Rand has Taim in Andor, not quite south like Ghealdan. Our beloved author seems to enjoy misleading us. Besides, there seems to be an agreement that Taim just “fits to well.”

Finally, Masema’s conversion to the Prophet cannot be due to ta’verenism. That requires the subject to be near the ta’veren. Also, in retrospect, RJ lets us know when ta’veren is at work. Masema just disappeared and returned suprisingly as the Prophet of the Dragon, laying waste to Ghealdan and much of Randland to boot.

This creates more questions. Could Sammael have sent the Shiado Aiel through the “fool stones” into Ghealdan to hinder Damendred? Perrin was sent to deal with Masema, could this lead to one of the times “Perrin must be near Rand” from Min’s viewing? What else lies in the plots of the Shadow? Plots revealed, how close are we to the Last Battle?

I must credit my friend Mike who introduced me to The Wheel of Time, and for such exhilarating discussions. Furthermore, Robert Jordan, I thank for the challenge. I hunger the absolute answers to this puzzle second only to True Love.

Most Sincerely,
P. Andrew LeRoy

[tjrogue]

OK, um... a couple of things are wrong with your theory.

1. Masema is first introduced in Fal Dara at the beginning of the Great Hunt, the rest of the Forsaken are believed to have broken free around the middle end of the book.

2. Even if Demandred were to capture Masema between tDR and tFoH when we meet up with the Shienarans again, and take him to Semirhage for distilling of memories, etc. in order to impersonate him, he's been surrounded by his fellow soldiers the entire period of time. Uno, or another Shienaran would have mentioned his disappearance to Nyneave when they went to see him as the Prophet.

3. Masema's already losing it at the end of tGH and the begining of tDR. THe mindset for insanity is already there. Holy zeal can do some pretty wierd things to people.

4. Just because the Wise Ones want Masema to die, because he's dangerous to Rand doesn't mean he's a Forsaken. They refer to him, I believe, as a "wild dog that must be put down." I can't imagine ANYONE, outside maybe Ba'alzamon/Moridin, referring to a Forsaken as a wild dog that must be put down.

5. This is Demandred we're talking about here. This is the second greatest man of his Age. Ravaging Ghealdan with illiterate peasants....um, no.

6. Is Masema mentioned AT ALL in LoC? if he is, it's barely passing mention, one I don't even recall. Demandred did something in LoC to further chaos, judging by the beginning and the end.

7. Sammael might have sent the Shaido into Ghaldean to hinder Demandred, but, isn't it more likely that he sent them there, and everywhere else to hinder Rand? The frickin' Dragon Reborn's got the biggest army seen since maybe the Hundred Year's War, or maybe even before that, sitting on your doorstep, complete with Asha'man, and you screw around with Demandred's plans?

8. We know where Graendal is. Why is she Suroth too?

[Abraxas77]

I thank you, Tjrouge, for your reply. Please allow me to rebute.

Point 1 & 2
We do not know, for certain, when the Forsaken broke free. Therefore, we can not assume this happend in the middle of the book.
As far as the other Shienarans go, I recall Uno saying Masema spends a lot of time shut off in his room with and/or without others. (tSR)

Point 3
I believe the Forsaken have quite a talent for acting. Deception is definately a common trait of the shadow, especially Forsaken.

Point 4
The Wise Ones do not simply desire the death of Masema. Three dreamwalkers forsaw it. On page 214 of tPoD Carelle also says, "They [dreamwalkers] have read the dream. The man must die," and Edarra adds, "It is enough that three dreamwalkers have said so, ... " This must prove Masema, at the very least, a darkfriend.

Point 5 & 6
You cannot deny the chaos and trouble the Prophet has caused Rand. At the Dark One's very command, Damendred is very capable of this.
Mentioning Masema in tLoC may make the correlation between him and Damendred too obvious.

Point 7
Yes, dispersing the Shiado definately hinders Rand, but why did Sammael choose Ghealdan? Rand would take a hit no matter where the Shiado were dispersed. Sammael hit two birds with one stone by choosing Ghealdan. His motive being for the Shiado to kill off dragonsworn. Remember how much Sammael wants to be NaeBlis!

Point 8
Okay, I see my falicy in the Suroth-Graendal thing. The point, however, was that the shadow has control of the West and East, with Forsaken to lead. Suroth is a known darkfriend.

[Abraxas77]

I just thought of another point.

Damendred would most likely choose a Borderlander, such as Masema, for a cover. RJ describe's him with nearly black eyes and a somewhat hooked nose. We know these are traits of Saldeans. Furthermore, Queen Ethenielle of Kandor rambles about marriages between borderland countries. They must all look somewhat alike. Due to the reduced features, we can dismiss any Saldean cover. They would otherwise be prominent.

[Abraxas77]

Yet another point. Man, I just can't stop thinking about this!

Remember Ingtar? He was the Shienaran darkfriend who returned to the light just before he died to save Rand in Falme. As I recall, he was guarding a gate into Fal Dara with Masema. This may symbolize that the two were in cahoots. Which is to say Masema is of the shadow as well.

Furthermore, it was implied, if not stated, that a Forsaken rescued Padin Fain. Masema rescued Padin Fain. Why not Damendred? He was the nearest Forsaken (since Masema is Damendred).

[Buckweet]

Besides the real obvious reasons why Demandred is not the Prophet (which you do not seem to be accepting) let me try a different tact;)

Ok, we all know and agree that Demandred was always in the shadow of the Dragon...we all know that he transfered all his hate to Rand.

Why the hell would Demandred pose as some nutty soldier and worship Rand???!!!

this does not make sense:p

Besides, after 9 books I think we know RJ enough that Demandred has to be someone mentioned a bit in LoC..the answer is there.:confused:

[Abraxas77]

My dear Buckweet, you must open your mind to all posibilities.
Only then shall you find truth where you least expect it.

Your rebuttel merely strengthens my arguement.

The very reason Damendred chose the Prophet as his cover... lies in the ideology that no one would believe him capable of swearing to the Dragon Reborn.

I stand to prove otherwise.

[tjrogue]

Ragan is the guard with Masema at the gate. Should we watch out for him in the Battle for TV? Don't want him stabbing poor Eg in the back...like he had the opportunity to do to Nyneave in tFoH.

I'm flipping through my copy of tGH looking for evidence of why a Forsaken would release Fain, completely beside the fact that Fain wouldn't be likely to accept any help from a Forsaken, being possessed by Mordeth. We get thoughts of Fain in the rest of tGH, thoughts of the Forsaken freeing him are nowhere.

Once again, this is Demandred. His hatred and envy of Rand/LTT is immense. It's irrational. Nobdy, not even the other Forsaken understand it, they just accept it. (tFoH prologue) What's the likelihood that he decides to pursue a cover of irrationality IN SUPPORT of Rand?

Lanfear broke out in the middle of the book and immediately sought out Rand. That's my reasoning for when the Forsaken broke free.

No Demandred's in LoC, both beginning and end. He's given his task, and he shows the DO what he's done at the end. In that book is evidence of what he's done.

Whitecloaks aren't Darkfriends. (at least, most of them aren't) As a presence throughtout the series, they've been dangerous to our heroes. Elaida isn't a Darkfriend. Any doubt as to her thoughts towards rand have been put to rest. Tuon isn't a Darkfriend. (At least, she better not be, or I'll hunt down RJ myself.) Her thoughts aren't exactly beneficial towards Rand. Niether are Gawyn's thoughts. Or Galad's. Alivia may not be a darkfriend, but she's going to help Rand DIE. Danger isn't just from Darkfriends. The Dreamwalker's dreams must be looked at with that degree of skepticism. Simply assuming that Masema is at least a Darkfriend isn't giving RJ enough credit.

To sum it up. Masema ain't Demandred. He's a couple bananas short of a bunch, and he's definitely dangerous to Rand, but he ain't Demandred.

Personally, I'm in favor of the Halwin Norry theory. =]

[Buckweet]

My dear Abraxas (Amelia is getting jealous no doubt;))


I agree with TJ, Masema is a couple french fries short of a happymeal:D , but he is not in any way a dark friend, and he is definetly not Demandred. Why ohh why would he worship Rand..who he hates with so much passion. why would he ravage the lands making everyone become DRAGON sworn??? hmmm..??? why would he speak of Rand as the creator..and claim saying his name is blasphemy??? hmmm??

Demandred is no fool, very cunning and diabolical and dangerous. He doesnt strike me as the sarcastic type and the answer to who he is or what he did is LoC no doubt--

Besides your counter argument makes people say ok... he's not Demandred.... but the Randlanders (people of wheel of time) dont go around looking for demandred...so why would he take this obvious role????... He needs to take low cover and not be in any real spot lite... i.e like Rhavin being Moragses playtoy or semihage as Anath(my theory).. He would not like to attract any attention from rand nor would he want to attract the attention of whiteclocks.

Masema has made waaaaaay to many enemies and I doubt that Demandred would put himself in that kind of situation.

[supuradam]

Originally posted by tjrogue


Whitecloaks aren't Darkfriends. (at least, most of them aren't) As a presence throughtout the series, they've been dangerous to our heroes. Elaida isn't a Darkfriend. Any doubt as to her thoughts towards rand have been put to rest.

the leader of the questioners is a darkfriend mind you, we find out valda is one when the girls are in falme... or maybe tanchico... regardless either book one or four. no, wait, we find out in book 1! remember the prologue to book two, in the back of tEotW. it's there... at the very end.
secondly, elaida isn't a darkfriend as we know, but she is being controlled per se, by one. forget the keeper of the chronicles name, but that's who she is, and thus elaida sort of is a darkfriend.
and doesn't someone mention somewhere that semirhage is in the white tower? and i remember the keeper going to a meeting with her, and saying how bad she wanted to learn.

[Buckweet]

not semirhage,... Messana is in the tower.

[tjrogue]

The Leader of the Questioners is neither Valda, nor a darkfriend (Jaichim Carridin) Is the name Asunawa familiar?

I assume you were mentioning Bors(Carridin) when you referred to the DFS at the beginining of tGH. There's been no evidence of Valda, Niall, Asunawa, or even Onerna being a Darkfriend, or any other Whitecloak for that matter, and in my post I made allowances for Carridin, so I'm not quite sure what your point is.

Elaida isn't a Darkfriend, but she authorized the kidnapping and torture of Rand BEFORE Alviarin got her hooks into her. She's Red Ajah, not Black, but until Eg pulls her down, she's still a major problem for aspiring rulers of the world. She doesn't have to be a DF to be dangerous, and that was my point to Abraxas.

Buckweet's correct. Messana is controlling Alviarin.

[supuradam]

sorry.

[MikeRules311]

Your arguement about Masema being Damendred has conciderable merit. I don't personally think that is the way it will turn out, but that is just my opnion. I have been doing some research since seeing your post, and there is nothing to dispute your claim. I also agree that masema is doing a very good job of sowing chaos with his decree of killing all of the people who won't declare for Rand. I mean, just think about it. If someone were to tell you you must submit to another person or die, Many people would rise up against that person. They would unify against said person instead of for him. I know I for one will look at masema in a new way and very carefully read all his scenes for now on.

[Larkin]

There is nothing to dispute the theory that Bela is really the Dark One either, I've seen it posted a number of places. :D

I'm not sold on Masema being a Forsaken. I don't have any real good reasons other than it just doesn't feel right, so take my two cents with a grain of salt, or don't, it's not that important.

Demandred's the guy behind the scenes, there's no doubt about it. We see less of what he does than we do of Fain or Moridin. Masema, is not, shall we say, the guy behind the scenes. Maybe Dmdrd is posing as a Randland Jimmy Baker (? that was the televagelist guy, wasn't it ?) so he can make up for lost time, but I don't think so.

Demandred's also a General, AKA Military Man. Masema maybe a Borderlander, and his followers might win a whole lot (mind you he has a whole lot of followers), but he's not star matterial, there's no brass in his future, he's not cut out for it. Try calling Masema Military Man, it doesn't fit, it doesn't work.

I think it would be more RJish if D.Bashere were Dmdrd. Perrin need's to kill a Forsaken sometime, doesn't he. Maybe not.

Anyway, Rand's going to die, Fain will fight the Dark One in his place, Avendaha's children will be the next's Age's Forsaken, Mat will not invent gunpowder (How dare I???), Perrin will rule the world, then feed everyone to the wolves, and finaly in book 27, two weeks after RJ moves to a Carribian island and lives next door to TuPac and Elvis, we find out that the series will never be finished, and Galad finds the Holy Grail of Randland, and the Wheel of Time turns and ages come and go.

[Larkin]

:eek:

Um, Galad finds the holy Grail of Randland on the slopes of SG and carries it home to Camilyn with uncle Luc.

I mispeled material in the last post, I'l nevr do it again, promse.

And no, Masema is not Demandred, maybe. :confused:

[magatsu17]

I have a hard time believing that the prophet could be Demandred, It just seem so crazy that Demandred could be with around Rand when he's so week at the beginging of book 2 and not kill him. I remeber once Grandel saying that Sammael hatred of Rand was a pale thing next to Demandred's. Such an obsession like that would not allow him to even be around him let alone inspire people to worship him.

One thing I still can't get over is how Taim isn't Demandred. I mean those to guy's are just so alike. Maybe Taim is his desendant.

[Abraxas77]

I suppose ...we will find out in the books to come.:)

[GWINNA]

I'm not sure a quite buy it but its a good theory, as for any of you who care, I'll be back to posting regularly in about 4-5 weeks, right after Finals

[Abraxas77]

After futher review, I have come up with a few more arguements to back my theory. I even thought of a few new theories as well (check out "Greandal leads the Seanchan" and "Moraine Damendred")

Anyways, one of the things that disturbs me most about the presented rebuttels is that no one seems to see why Damendred would choose the Prophet for a cover. While it makes perfect sense to me, I must explain futher.

1) The effect of the dragonsworn. Although it is true that Masema has coerced thousands of people to swear to the Dragon Reborn, take a look at the effect this has had on Rand. How many times have we heard someone curse the dragonsworn? We must admit that the Prophet's doings hurt Rand more than helps him. Damendred would definately enjoy hurting Rand.

The worst part about the whole thing is that Mesana takes hardly any blame for the dragonsworn. Everyone points their finger at Rand (he is who they are sworn to correct?). From a bit I just read, I'm lead to believe that the dragonsworn are also "Prophet Sworn." Listen to this:
<quote>
"The Prophet of the Lord Dragon, blessed be his name in the Light, has destroyed greater armies by far than your tag end. You may kill us, but we will be avenged when the Prophet spills your blood on the ground. None of you will survive us long. He will triumph in fire and in blood." (tPoD pg. 240-241)
</quote>
Now that sounds as if he swears first to the Prophet. Notice he does not say the Lord Dragon will avenge this dragonsworn fellow. Also the "He" in the last sentence definately refers the Prophet. Where does it say that the Prophet will triumph in fire and in blood? That last part is quite reminensence of the shadow. Besides, that is how the shadow leads--through fear.

2) Why is Masema so afraid of the Asha'men? I truely need to finish the series again before I can build on this part too much, but I recall Masema had a certain timidcy of those who can channel. Being who he is, the Prophet would not want anyone to recognize of detect his own abilty to channel. But like I said, I must reread those parts of WH before I can build much more of an arguement there.

Finally, what hard "proof" do we have that Masema lost his sanity. None that I noticed, just a bunch of hasty opinions. Have we actually heard Masema's oath to the Dragon Reborn? I believe Damendred has himself well set in this Prophet cover, there must be more evidence in the liturature we have. I'll keep you posted on what I find.

[MikeRules311]

Originally posted by magatsu17


One thing I still can't get over is how Taim isn't Demandred. I mean those to guy's are just so alike. Maybe Taim is his desendant.

That is exactly the point. It's so obvious that it makes me wary. If I were RJ (god forbid...), I would think it a great deception. everyones so sure Taim is Damendred that they are not willing to look at alternatives.

[Abraxas77]

If you were Robert Jordan, Mike, then we would know the answer to this riddle--all these riddles:D

[MikeRules311]

Yes, we would, woudn't we Andrew?;)

[Relayquin]

When Graendal, Demandred, Mesaana and Semirhage meet in the prologue of LoC to discuss Demandred's visit to the Pit of Doom, and Demandred tells the others about the DO's and his plans, Mesaana thinks to herself (paraphrasing here): "Demandred was the gambler (...) It was extremely risky, but it could hand them everything."

How could Demandred, posing as a raving lunatic burning his way across Ghealdan and Altara, hand the Shadow everything? The most he's going to accomplish is sowing some chaos and give Rand a bad name. However, there's enough chaos already without Masema (Arad Doman/Tarabon) and Rand already has a bad name because of it. I fail to see the bigger advantage the Shadow could gain through Masema.

At least Taim (whom some still think is Demandred, even after WH) has a good chance of handing the Shadow everything if he succeeds in gaining absolute control of the Black Tower.

[Larkin]

Although Masema does deserve the lion's share of the blame for the lootings and burning that have taken place, don't forget that alot of the "bad seeds" in the dragonsworn were planted there by the whitecloaks early in the series.

The Masema=Dmdrd works with the statement that was made by one of the Female Forsaken, something like "and you were planning to hope and run into him or something!!!!" (obviously not verbatum). But, I still don't like it.

[Abraxas77]

Relayquin, thankyou for that quote. You found some of the evidence I was speaking of earlier. The actual quotation states:
It [Damendred's plan] could work; it could hand them [the Forsaken] everything. But it required luck, and gambling made her uncomfortable.This helps my theory. The Prophets actions could easily aide either side. Being the pain in the buttocks that he is right now, I would say his actions are in favor of the Forsaken, and the DO's command. However, if Rand plays is cards correctly--and he has so far, he is taveren after all--it sould not be much of a problem to turn the sides. Easy solution: kill Masema.

[Abraxas77]

Originally posted by magatsu17
I have a hard time believing that the prophet could be Demandred, It just seem so crazy that Demandred could be with around Rand when he's so week at the beginging of book 2 and not kill him. Look once again at the Prolouge to LoC (page 16), the DO tells Damendred: ...HEAR WHO WILL DIE AND WHO LIVEPerhaps Rand was one who is to live in tGH. I recall something about someone wanting to convert Rand to the shadow (like what the emporer wanted to do to Luke Skywalker). It is a common theme in stories such as the WoT.

[Abraxas77]

Originally posted by Larkin
There is nothing to dispute the theory that Bela is really the Dark One either...No doubt the best arguement against my theory; except that unlike the Bela theory, mine has quite a bit of support. Cheers though.
Demandred's the guy behind the scenes, there's no doubt about it. ... Masema, is not, shall we say, the guy behind the scenes.Maybe Masema is opposite of "behind the scenes," but he has a great cover. Like a stage hand hides behind a prop, Damendred plays behind the scenes with his "Prophet" act.
Demandred's also a General, AKA Military Man. Masema maybe a Borderlander, and his followers might win a whole lot (mind you he has a whole lot of followers), but he's not star matterial, there's no brass in his future, he's not cut out for it. Try calling Masema Military Man, it doesn't fit, it doesn't work.
First of all, remember that I claim the Prophet is an act. Then, read this quote:
"The Prophet of the Lord Dragon, blessed be his name in the Light, has destroyed greater armies by far than your tag end. You may kill us, but we will be avenged when the Prophet spills your blood on the ground. None of you will survive us long. He will triumph in fire and in blood." (tPoD pg. 240-241) This at least shows Masema posseses skills in leadership and stragtegy. Both of which are requirements for a general.
I think it would be more RJish if D.Bashere were Dmdrd. Perrin need's to kill a Forsaken sometime, doesn't he. Maybe not.Bashere??? ...now wouldn't that be interesting. And yes, when does Perrin get to kill a Forsaken? ...and Mat too!!

[Relayquin]

Originally posted by Abraxas77
Relayquin, thankyou for that quote. (...)
This helps my theory.

No, it doesn't. You have still not told us how Demandred, impersonating as Masema, could hand the Shadow everything. Somehow, the Forsaken think that whatever Demandred is doing, might give them a decisive advantage over the enemy. I fail to see how Demandred posing as Masema could provide the Shadow with this decisive advantage, so please enlighten me.

Sure, sowing chaos and wreaking havoc in Rand's name is beneficiary to the Shadow, but it's hardly decisive...

I recall something about someone wanting to convert Rand to the shadow
That would be Ishamael/Ba'alzamon. He tried to convert Rand to the Shadow for most of the first and second books.

[Abraxas77]

Originally posted by Relayquin
I fail to see how Demandred posing as Masema could provide the Shadow with this decisive advantage, so please enlighten me.
Well for one, since it is such a great cover, there is little chance Rand's team will discover him. (Except D doesn't know about Perrin's nose--side theory: Perrin will reveal D to Rand) That would allow Damendred to get very close to Rand. The only problem is that we do not know all of Damendred's plan. Therefore, I can not explain how his plan could give the shadow everything.
That would be Ishamael/Ba'alzamon. He tried to convert Rand to the Shadow for most of the first and second books. And that, magatsu17, may be why Masema did not kill Rand in Fal Dara. That is some proof of a command to keep Rand alive.

[tjrogue]

Your explanation for why Demandred didn't kill Rand in tGH is something that the DO said in LoC?

You make the claim that the Prophet is an act, and then stuff all the reasoning that everyone has given you into this all-encompassing Demandred-is-acting hypothesis. Anything that doesn't fit under this goes under the "Well, we can't know Demandred's plans, so we can't know how being Masema fits in with the Shadow's plan to resurrect Narg Blah Blah..."

You see where this becomes difficult to agree with, after a while. Or, in my case at the beginning. =]

[Relayquin]

Originally posted by Abraxas77
The only problem is that we do not know all of Damendred's plan. Therefore, I can not explain how his plan could give the shadow everything.

Well, it's a pretty glaring hole in your theory. ;)

[Larkin]

As a matter of personal preference, Dmdrd doesn't like to get too personaly involved in conflicts. As a point in case, the battle at the end of WH. I'm not looking at the book, so I'm not 100% sure, but..... At the beginning, he's composed and reminising about being a soldier (all proud of himself), but towards the end, he's a little jagged, thinking about commanding from the heights (generals who lead in the field, die in the field type thing).

The weaker Forsaken (those with the corny leftover names that they had to live with after the cool ones got all the good names), such as the two in tEotW, Osangar, ect.... They depend on open conflict, physicaly (or with the power) struggling to attain a goal, standoff at the EYE and the ambush at the Sun Palace.

The stronger Forsaken use more sophisticated methods to achieve position and power. Semerage does strange S&M stuff, Mesana pulls strings and makes Alvi make Elaida make AS do her work for her, Ishi, we all know about him, and the subject of this post Dmdrd, does politics and organizations.

If Dmdrd carries his personal aloufness (my own coinage!!!) to politics and organizations, a Masema impersonation would seem a dangerous proposition to him. Masema does all his political action himself (For clarity, compare Thom to Masema methods of killing some one, Thom tricks an enemy into doing the deed, Masema tells someone off to do it in his name). Dmdrd, seems the type of guy to go more the Thom route than the Masema, and Thom's not a possiblity, I never even thought it.

To take the question from another angle, look at Masema's name and check out the symbolism.

Masema, it makes you think of volcano's and lava. Seeing that he plays a fairly big role for a little character, we must assume that the symbolism goes beyond his bloodly bad language in the second book.

Masema (SP?) is molten rock underground, hot, firey and distructive. When it reaches the surface, it destroys everything in its path, without regaurd (fits pritty well for Masema=Lunatic theory). Now, I don't see Dmdrd doing anything without regard.

Now to be fair, the rest of the symbolism does fit the M=D thoery (one of the FEW reasons I don't out and out refuse to consider it). The continents move and shift because the masema Under the surface Forces it to. That, however reluctantly I say it, does fit the Dmdrd=Thoughtful, BehindTheScenes, Soph. Forsaken personality.

I still like to beleive that the damage and chaos Masema has done is a result of the Law of Unintended Consiquences (my Philo book isn't in front of me either, but every intensional result is accompanied by any number of extra results, RJ used this or some char. said it sometime in the series too)

Masema's ferver was below the surfice, until Moraigne sent him out, bamm!!! religious ferver flows forth and brings with it it's universal symptoms, war, abuse of power, degenerate followers, if you don't join us will kill'ya metality, all spreading like wildfire, consuming everything in its way, like lava (masema).

Moraigne didn't want a Masema to institute a Randreligion, or inspire RandFreaks, or lead RandCrusades, she just wanted them to spead word about the DR.

Masema seems more like an embarrasing accident then a Forsaken planned thing. MOST other Forsaken Results are obvious thanks to RJ clues, the EYE, Flame, Trap in Tear, Rahvin, Elaida, etc. You can tell that it was Forsaken Work, even if you can't always tell who in other cases.

I mean really, the battle against the shadow was just starting in Book 3, you can't expect everything to have the desired result when your just learning the ropes. Masema is most likely a good bloody flaming thing gone bad. Though it was Moraigne's fault, she's absolved of any bad qualities (she has spent more time in the "Talked About but Not Present Corner" than Perrin or Matt or both?).

[Abraxas77]

Larkin, I think what you are trying to say is that while my theory possess strength, it does not prove the Masema is actually Damendred. Also, due to RJ's suttelties and misdirections, we will not know Damendred's cover until RJ outright tells us. I agree with that 100%, but I doubt it will prevent me from further arguement. :)

I mentioned earlier that I believe there is more evidence--of not only this theory, but of new and old ones alike--in the story as written. I hope to achieve some theory developement as I finish aPoD and read WH for the second time. Perhaps we will see the next novel at the book stores this winter or sooner. :D

[Abraxas77]

Originally posted by tjrogue
Your explanation for why Demandred didn't kill Rand in tGH is something that the DO said in LoC?Ishmael acted as if he had a similar plan. The command to Damendred may be new to Damendred in LoC, but Ishmael must have had a similar order before Rand left the Two Rivers.
You make the claim that the Prophet is an act, and then stuff all the reasoning that everyone has given you into this all-encompassing Demandred-is-acting hypothesis. Anything that doesn't fit under this goes under the "Well, we can't know Demandred's plans, so we can't know how being Masema fits in with the Shadow's plan to resurrect Narg Blah Blah..."You are correct, my theory has a few minor holes in it (well maybe a little more than minor) but that's not my fault. RJ is just too vague and misleading about the whole Damendred thing. Please admit that I have some good points. Enough to not rule out Masema as a plausible Damendred cover. I agree with Larkin when I say, we won't know until RJ tells us, or the next book is released. It's just that I'm 90% confident it's Masema, and I will continue to seek proof of that.
:p

[tjrogue]

It's a possibility, I will admit that.

IHowever, I'm 99% sure it isn't true.

Demandred, unlike Ishmael in tEotW and tGH, is under no compunction to LET THE LORD OF CHAOS RULE. Niether is Be'lal, Mesaana, or Ishamael in tDR (Or was the trap in Tear just acting? =])

The exact paragraph Before the DO says WOULD YOU BE NAE'BLIS? Demandred tells the DO "The Dragon can be destroyed."

The evidence isn't not there, it is there, but it doesn't point to your theory. Two weeks after the first Forsaken get loose (other than Ishy) we get our first look at Masema. The time frame for impersonation is miniscule. Demandred isn't even loose then; it's probably less time than that, if he's loose at all. Masema is surrounded by companion soldiers at all times during the hunt, he's almost impossible to kidnap. Demandred isn't likely to serve Rand, it's against his character. Dmeandred isn't likely to let Rand live, and doesn't show any sign of wanting to do so until his orders from the DO; it's against his character. Being the leader of a rabble isn't Demandred's character. Also, being the leader of a rabble doesn't turn the tide of of favor to the Shadow.

If any of this, or all the other evidence displayed in this thread can be disputed with something other than "Demandred's just acting," and "Demandre's plans are too mysterious for us to know," I'm willing to listen.

If Demandred turns out to be Masema, instead of either Halwin Norry, or just Demandred using proxies, I'll be highly dissappointed. It simply doesn't fit.

[Abraxas77]

I know there are some facts in WH to help my arguement. Mainly the reason why Masema is so warry of the Asha'men. When I get back home (so I can open up WH) I'll find some more substantial proof. Untill then I believe this thread is at a standstill. We are starting to sound redundant. :)

[MikeRules311]

Your book 9 is at my place, Andrew, not at yours. :p

[Tinkers Sword]

I'm just jumpin' in here, I haven't read the whole thread so maybe someone has mentioned this already.

Perrin can smell emotion etc. in humans and when he smells Mesama he smells a madman.

[Abraxas77]

Do you have a quotation for that? I don't think that was quite how RJ put it.

[Buckweet]

Yea that sounds awefully familiar... I think Perrins hacles rose whe n he sniffed him... he was just plain cookoo

[Abraxas77]

Okay, I have new/revised theory.

If Masema Dagar is not Damendred himself, he is a puppet controlled by D or at least one of the Forsaken.

I believe my arguement has at least proved that much.

[Buckweet]

naaa.... no other one fits unless he's Messana :eek:

[Abraxas77]

Has anyone explored the idea of Luke/Isam being Damendred? Isam being Lan's "cousin" and all. Luke being near the Mountains of Mist when Masema pledged to Rand...
...Or is Luke/Isam "just" a different/new evil as Fain?

[Abraxas77]

Originally posted by Buckweet
Yea that sounds awefully familiar... I think Perrins hacles rose when he sniffed him... he was just plain cookoo Could Damendred's hatred of Rand--Lews Therin--be so strong, that it could be called--or smelled--insanely mad towards the Dragon Reborn?

[Buckweet]

I need to find the exact passage, but I remember that Perrins first reaction of Masema/Prohet was along the lines of..
"shit this guys nuts..."

[MikeRules311]

Damendred hates LT with a passion so great it defenently verges on insanity at least. Perhaps that is what Perrin was smelling

[Abraxas77]

Allright, I found the quotation where Perrin smells Masema.and his scent . . . The only name Perrin could give that smell, steel-hard and blade-sharp and quivering with wild intensity, was madness
aPoD,Beginnings, page 579Well, yeah, ....Masema must be mad. Also, from his speach, I now find it difficult to believe the Prophet IS Damendred. However, I will not rule it out. I'm going to stick to my revised theory that Masema is Damendred's puppet.
There is another quote I'd like to point out. It tickled my brain. I'm not quite sure what it means exactly, but I think it helps prove my new theory. On the next page, Perrin tells Masema they are going to see Rand. "Masema actually recoiled. Baring his teeth, he glared at the Aes Sedai" I thought, why does he have such a fear of the OP? I know most people are terrified of it, but I think this portrays some sort of "bad" expirence with the OP--to have THAT kind of reation. Then, at the bottom of the page he says:"I am anxious to speak with the Lord Dragon, may his name be blessed by the Light." His eyes flickered toward the two As Sedai. He tried to hide it, actually smiling at Perrin. But he smelled . . . grim. "I am very anxious indeed."
aPoD, Beginnings, page 580Grim. Grim implies something horrible. RJ, doesn't foreshadow events any more obvious than that (well not including Min's viewings, foretellings, or dreams--which are rather confusing as well). I think Damendred has used the OP on Masema--and he knows it--to control him. This must be some type of compulsion, with a touch of insanity.

Any other thoughts?

[Filbertgough]

Perrin can smell people, thats a given. He clearly stated that masema was mad. As far as being Demandred,.... Has any one read the "wheel of time" book that tells the history of the wheel? It goes into further depth of the forsaken, the seanchen, the empires that have fallen and risen from the first turn of the wheel. It clearly states that demandred was the the head of LTT's armys a great battle leader. I think Deamndred has taken the place of the Ma'HEal " Leader" of the Asha'men.

[wingo]

Ach i hate the Taimendred theory with a passion/

[nutshanglo]

masema is not a forsaken. Moirane said " what wounds have maddness has he healed" in referance to Rand need I say more from book 2 or 3 cant' remindber which

[Dregs]

Graverobber
(But it does give me the oppurtunity.......

Who the Fuck is Wingo! :D )

[4th Dimension]

Wound of madnes was probably the taint and he removed it and by it healed the wound.

[Chronicler]

Dude, this theory is useless.

And the mere thought of considering that Luc might be Demandred is even worse.

Please... do you believe what you saw in X Files, too?

[Rallan]

Dude, this theory is useless.

And the mere thought of considering that Luc might be Demandred is even worse.

Please... do you believe what you saw in X Files, too?

Hey you've gotta remember that most of the action on this thread happened back in 2002. I'm too lazy to go and check the publication dates, but back then there might not've been much direct proof (ie Perrin's nose) that Masema is certifiably batshit insane and not faking it.

Even before we knew for a fact that he's thoroughly mad though, I agree that the Masemandred theory never held much water. As cunning evil plans go, "I'll impersonate a destitute foreign soldier, set myself up as one of the Dragonsworn, hope the authorities don't butcher my followers, and eventually build up an army of zealots big enough to plunge entire nations into anarchy, stay in-character as a disgustingly unhygeinic madman 24/7, and do such a good job of it that a bunch of Shienerans who knew the old sane Masema will never doubt that I'm still the same man they knew" is a tad far-fetched.

Personally I'm running with the assumption that much like Ishamael (never impersonated anyone, ever), Lanfear (only took false identities for specific purposes and limited periods), Moghedien (ditto), and Graendal (whose false identity is a remarkably unimportant minor Lady in the middle of nowhere), Demandred's pulling strings and doing his thing without assuming the role of anyone in particular. Especially since even my favourite Demandred theory (Weiramondred) has long since been shot down.