Verins 'Thing'

[Theoban]

I was wondering about something, at the end of book 9, we find out that Elza is BA, but for some reason has decided that Rand has to live 'til Tarmon Gaidon. Was this because of what Verin was doing at the beginning, making all the other AS go and swear to Rand?

[Mann]

Yes. The caveat being her three BA Oaths.

[Jacob]

The caveat? Err...can you explain that in other words so that I understand? :-)

My understanding of the situation is as follows: Verin uses compulsion on these Aes Sedai to *encourage* then to swear to Rand. All these Aes Sedai has to find reasons within themselves for this though. In Else's case, I believe that during Verin's compulsion of her, she unlocked something that had been instilled in Else, a command that she had been given by Ishamael. During that Darkfriend meeting that we witnessed in The Great Hunt, alot of high ranking Dark Friends were gathered and were given commands by Ishamael. But it was all very secret, to the point that the commands were often secret even to those given the commands. They would only know what to do when/if certain things happend/they came into certain situations. Else was probably one of the Black Ajah Aes Sedai that were given commands like this and what now happend was probably that the sittuation was of the sort to let such a command surface.

[Elin]

Caveat = warning.

Can't really make sense of it in what Mann wrote, though. :confused:

[Piney K]

What is interesting I think is that Verin used her trick on Beldeine . When I first read it the name stood out but I could not remember from where . Now I do know , Beldeine was Egwene's Keeper of Chronicles inside the testing ter'angreal . She had also been taken and turned by the Black Ajah , which is why she betrayed Egwene . We know that one of the things Verin instilled in her was that she must obey/look after Rand until the Last Battle . What else did she instill . Or possibly like Jacob says , did she unlock something Beldeine herself wasn't aware of .

[chavv]

What's inside the testing ter'angreal is NOT real. It's POSSIBLE.

[Larkin]

I'm not sure Verin had anything to do with Elza wanting to keep Rand alive.

We can all asume that Moridin is the DO's key player, (Fain's a close second), and from that Fisher King scene, and from the earlier books, we know he his playing "both sides of the game".

What is the DO trying to do?
He's trying to break the Wheel of Time, hence the name of the series.

How can he do that?
He has to cause a change in this age that is so great that the pattern can no longer repeat itself and the wheel (the cycle) is broken.

What is the most painfully obvious thing that takes place over and over again throughout Randland time?
The battle between LTT and TBOH.

How does that battle end every single time?
Rand Dies!!!!! (as per TGH)

How do you stop the cycle?
Have all the Darkfriends and Forsaken do everything in their power to keep Rand alive. (Moridin actually saves rand in SL)

There you go, Moridin playing both sides, in order to beat Rand, let him win for once. (Its the sporting thing to do)

Elza is trying to keep Rand alive to save herself from some fate worse than death that she might face if he dies.

[TimGoldenboots]

Interesting theory, but if Rand Wins the the DO will still be sealed away from the world... weather he dies from natural causes or fighting the DO or repeats LTT's suicide it does not mean that he cannot be reborn next time...

You are on to something here, but your conclusions are all messed up. It seems more likely that Moridin would want Rand alive til the last battle and then put Rand in a position where he is sealed away with the DO at the end... If Rand is sealed away with the DO then in the next age he could not be reborn to fight the DO. thus breaking the pattern and the wheel...

Sorry if this sounds erronious, but it is the best I could come up with on sheort notice... lol

[TimGoldenboots]

Oh, shoot... I forgot to link that stuff back to the main topic which was Elza's decision to help Rand. You guys are giving her way too much credit by linking Moridin's ideas and experiences to her conclusion that Rand must be alive to face the DO. First off, not even the other forsaken are privy to Moridin's thoughts on how TG must unfold. They do what he says because the DO told them to, but that is about it... if you think he has a lowely darkfriend as his confidant then I pity you...

Whatever made her reach this decision has to be based on her own experiences and interpretations not on Moridin's. I, myself believe that she did it in order to be close to Rand so when the time to kill him presented itself she would be there to do it and elevate her status within the DO's heirarchy. That fits all the criteria since darkfriends are all in it for greed and power. Plus it allows her to be handy when Rand makes plans that she can find out about and report back to her boss if she ever gets a chance...

It even fits with Min's viewing of her serving Rand in her own fashion... she was in that group that Min mentioned... She has already fulfilled that part during the battle at the end of WH.

[Larkin]

An officer doesn't take a soldier into his\her confinence when they issue their orders, but if they are given clearly, the soldier doesn't need all the background information for the orders to be understood. For TGH, we know that Moridin sometimes gives commands directly to lowely darkfriends. Or latter in the series, we see that he knows how to use his chain of command, using fades, messangers, forsaken, Shadar Haran, and others to spread the word.

Elza has some command from Moridin, Mesanna, whoever, to protect Rand from outside threats. It works good for her cover because it fits DO "Do as your told or else" oaths and her "Rand, Please Let Me Be Your Slave" oath.

Verrin's thing worked on her because she already had a reason to want Rand to make it to the Last Battle, hense she gave her oath.

Verrin's thing (that's a good way to describe it) probably causes similar "symptoms" in the other AS, but in the darkfriend case, I think she had prestanding orders. Its a glimmer at the evil conspiracy to let the good guys think they've won, then the DO pops out of his shell and yells bo.

[TimGoldenboots]

Originally posted by Larkin
Elza has some command from Moridin, Mesanna, whoever, to protect Rand from outside threats. It works good for her cover because it fits DO "Do as your told or else" oaths and her "Rand, Please Let Me Be Your Slave" oath.

My only problem here is that you have no proof that such an order was given to her. Remember that she was captured at the end of book 6. If there had been a general order at that time to make sure Rand survived til TG, then why did Sammael try to kill him or at least get him killed afterwards? Remember that when he went over his plans with Graendal neither of them saw any reason that Rand dieing by way of Mashadar was in violation to the DO's order to "let the lord of chaos rule"... I am not saying that an order could not have been passed to her since then, but there is no proof and more importantly... why would they bother since she was in captivity. You know how they treat their servents who get captured... Look at Moggy. She only survived because she was also forsaken, but is now on a very short leash.

Elza was in no position to affect Rand one way or the other. So who would take all the trouble of getting around the wise one guards... Why bother telling her the new plan since clearly she wa snot going to be part of it til she found a way to excape?

[Larkin]

Let the Lord of Chaos Rule, there was a whole book about it, or so the scenes with Dmdrd at SG make us think. The order was there, I'm sure of it. There was no new plan it, was the same one, the DO has a high speed corporate network,and this goes beyond wireless servers and the like. The footsoldiers knew whats going one and if a Forsaken is afraid to disobey, they don't want their people screwing things up in ignorance, Messana got the word out if anybody did.

And that Mashadar thing, that was Sammy and Grndl being gutless, not wanting to take the blame for Rand kicking it.

I wouldn't want to take the blame either, were I in their shoes. Gutless, me???

TimGoldenboots, did you say you pitied me a couple posts ago :(