What about the Gardeners?

[Vanidar]

When the secret of the Sul'dam and the damane gets out (soon I'm sure) the Empire will go to pieces. I'm wondering what would happen if the Ogier of the Empire either found, or were lead to, a stedding. I would think that if they had stedding in the Empire, the longing would have made them unreliable as troops. If they hadn't been exposed to a stedding imagine what the effect would be if they suddenly felt the rightness and peace of the stedding. Talk about a loss of troop strength. The Seanchan having trouble on all sides. I apologize if this is a rehash, but being new to the board I don't know what is and isn't. Any thoughts?

[Hank]

Thats a good point and something I've not thought about before. I have no idea how the Ogier troops fit with the non-violence of the stedding. You'd think they would have to have stedding over in Seanchen or else the Ogier wouldnt live longer than 10-15 years. Seanchen is turning out to be more and more peculiar.

What about circumnagivation of Randland? Do the Seanchen ever land in Shara or whats in between or is it even round?

[LaughingTurtle]

RANDLAND IS FLAT I TELL YOU, FLAT! ;)

You try to sail off where the page ends, and you'll fall off the earth....:rolleyes:

But anyway...if the Empire didn't have a stedding, how did the Ogier survive after the breaking? Though maybe if the Empire didn't have any steddings, their Ogier would be immune to a steddings "affects" because they never would have experienced one. Anh...

[nightfairy]

Faaaa-cinating.
I think we've got at least another book or 2 before the Seanchan Ogiers are brought to light. I've always envisioned their introduction as some kind of meeting b/t Seanchan Ogiers & Randland Ogiers. And man, what an encounter that promises to be.

[Jacob]

I keep waiting to see something from those Ogier Gardeners too. I hardly think that I'm the only one wondering what the hell those ogier are doing serving the Seanchan. They had no choice? Or (this I have come to believe myself), could it be that they have some sort of prophecy themselves? I.e. Ogier have this hellishly long patience, so maybe they're just doing this service (might be some clause allowing them to break service under certain circumstances) waiting for something particular to happen before they say "No More" and walk away? I would wonder what it could be that they were waiting for though. Hmm...

[flyingdutchman]

In WH, tuon did say something about the Gardeners having their own agreement with the empress. In my mind this means none of the seanchan except the empress and maybe a few others know about it's nature.

I agree there are stedding in seanchan, because the breaking envelloped the entire world. Therefore, ogier have to experience the longing too. Maybe they only serve for 10 years. As for them being quite fierce, I have this hunch that they are being forced into obiedience somehow. some kind of peace treaty. that would explain why an ogier would be in a permanent state of pissed-offishness.

[Pope Trevor]

It's possible that in Seanchean, the Ogier groves were never lost. Maybe the Ogier found them right away. That way they wouldn't be affected by the Longing the way Randland Ogiers are.

Remember, Lolial said that before the breaking, the Longing didn't exist.

And maybe it was the longing that made Ogier peaceful. Legends always say that they were fierce warriors at one time. If the Seanchean Ogiers didn't experience the Longing, they might have never lost the fierceness.

[LaughingTurtle]

Well they say that they were fierce warriors...once provoked, not necessarily that they just were mean all the time. (something about angering a mountain comes to mind) Though I do understand what you're saying.

Also who is to say that the breaking reached the entire planet? I don't think anything has been written about the other places experiencing it...and maybe the whole breaking was restricted to randland. It kinda reminds me of a nuclear explosion, as in drastically effecting the local area, and thus as it spreads out, it gets weaker and weaker...and thus with Seanchan being so far away (across an entire ocean) maybe it didn't feel it at all. I don't know, i really need to reread the series and also the companion book...

Yeah i too hope that in the next book we'll learn more about the "gardeners"...

[nightfairy]

I always imagined it sort of like how the continents split apart, like geologists say it used to be mostly one huge landmass. I kinda figured the land the Seanchan are on was once part of Randland & split off during The Breaking. And didnt TEOTW say something about mountains turning into valleys & where there was water, then there was land, or something like that?

[Running Wolf]

How fierce can a gardener be?
Gardening is all about peacefullnes, one with nature. Watching thingsgrow, tending to their needs, looking for predator bugs, listening to bees and such..... Peace :D
Sounds alot like Randland Ogiers with their trees.
I tend to lean towards the notion that they have their own prophesy for sure. They have to have one, every other "race/nation" of people have one. And the Ogiers are far from insignificant.
But since they are so patient:rolleyes: , (more like just really slow)
they havent gotten around to saying what their prophesy is. And dont say Loial would know. He is WAY too young at the age of what?, 95-100?, to be trusted with anything of that magnitude.:)
Maybe somewhere down the road with the Seachan somehow threatening Rand, the ogier will rise up in support of their "Dragon".
Who knows? , why cant I just friggin read the next book already.
JEEZ

[flyingdutchman]

The breaking was all over the world allright! Male channelers gone mad were the ones who broke it, and they were all over the place. That's no theory, that's a fact.

[archely]

Originally posted by LaughingTurtle
Well they say that they were fierce warriors...once provoked, not necessarily that they just were mean all the time. (something about angering a mountain comes to mind) Though I do understand what you're saying.

Also who is to say that the breaking reached the entire planet? I don't think anything has been written about the other places experiencing it...and maybe the whole breaking was restricted to randland. It kinda reminds me of a nuclear explosion, as in drastically effecting the local area, and thus as it spreads out, it gets weaker and weaker...and thus with Seanchan being so far away (across an entire ocean) maybe it didn't feel it at all. I don't know, i really need to reread the series and also the companion book...


First off, the quote you are looking for is something along the lines of "to anger the ogier and bring the mountains down on your head" which was thought to be to do something that was impossible. Then someone (perrin maybe) thinks it might have been originally "to anger the ogier is to bring the mountians down on your head" which is to say, don't do it, you'll get messed up.

Secondly I hate to burst your bubble, but the breaking happened WAY before the seanchan that we know were in Seanchan. These seanchan are decendants of the son that Artur Hawkwing sent across the ocean at the bidding of Ishamael in order to ensure that his empire broke up upon his death. (He also sent a daughter to Shara i believe). What I'm getting at is that ogiers from randland probably came with his son on the trip to Seanchan. As this happened way after the breaking, they would already be affected by the longing.

Final note to running wolf as to how fierce a gardener can be....just remember, gardeners also "prune" things. It's possible that the gardeners are only called that because they "prune" out unnecessary people for the empress, may she live forever. ;)

[LaughingTurtle]

*) thanks for finding the quote...i can't remember the last time i reread the series...(which means only one thing...time to reread again!)

*) yeah...i'm still a little rusty on the whole history aspect of wot...i mean i've had the companion book for like forever, but haven't gotten around to seriously going over it. (i'm more into the present than the past)

Though now that certain threads and theories have come about....i've dusted off my books and am determined to refresh my memory.

[Kiri]

Archley, just because the son of Artur Hawkwing and his attendees went to Seanchan, and conquered it, does not mean in any way that Ogier's and other people were not living in Seanchan already. For example, look at the Sharanese people. When the breaking occurred and the mountains became valleys, and the seas became deserts, and the deserts became seas etc, it only separated people and changed the land. It did not preclude people from land separated by water.

I believe the Ogier's in Seanchan do have the longing, and they do have Ogier groves. I believe when Artur Hawkwing's son first came to Seanchan he was able to conquer the lands and therefore start the prophecy about him being the rightful heir to Rand's land. (Sorry can't remember the actual name, which is really naughty of me. I can remember Shara, and Seanchan, but not Rand's land).

Ha....someone just shoot me!!!!!!

[Kiri]

;) Laughing Turtle, I've determined to dust off my books and reread the series as well. My memory is absolutely shocking. I'd forget my own name if other people didn't use it so often.

Anyways please forgive the misspellings etc, and the incorrect names I promise to improve in the future...if someone doesn't shoot me first.

[archely]

I was not saying that there weren't already people there. In fact, all I was saying is that the important seanchan we know of are decended from Hawkwing. You're right, he conquered the place, and that is exactly my point. It is a certainty that people were already there. We hear about revolts in Seanchan, and the Ever-Victorious Army.....if there was nobody else there, who would they have been victorious against? What i'm saying is that they were victorious, and the victors are the ones who set things up and who play a major role in the series. What I don't get is why you are trying to disagree with me when we both agree that Ogiers in Seanchan have the longing.

Although, I'm not sure about the prophecy saying that Hawkwing's son is the rightful heir. I would think that they would say he is the rightful heir simply because he is the heir of Hawkwing, ie, the son, and because Hawkwing held all the land, so would he. Doesn't seem to be much prophecy in that, just simple royal dynamics.