Are Dark Friends just plain stupid (aka why does anyone become a Dark Friend)

[Jacob]

I've been thinking on this abit; Why does anyone become a Darkfriend? Certainly, for a beggar or someone with a general hate for everything, I can see reasons of sorts. It's a career of sorts for someone with no other chance for advancement. "Give me your poor, your unvanted..." Even a beggar can rise to power in the ranks of the Friends of the Dark where they at times may command even nobles. But at what costs? Does not Friends of the Dark pay the prize of their very souls? For what? The promise of eternal life? That's like playing on the lottery, only of you don't win the grand prize, you're forever dammed. As we know, only the "Chosen" have so far been granted immortality by the Dark one. And everyone knew what happend to them, getting sealed in. They stayed sealed in upuntil just recently, but still new darkfriends kept popping up all since the bore was first drilled up until now. Thus, anyone with the slightest bit of brain power would be able to figure out that the chances of them being awarded immortality after they swear to the Dark are next to none.

Do these people actualy damn their souls forever? I.e. do these people actually take that gamble or can they simply say "well, if I'm not awarded immortality, all that will happen is that I'll have to go through abit of a purgatory after I die before I'm born again"? The saying goes "Noone can walk so long in the Dark that they can not return to the light" or something very similar. Is that "the truth" and something that every randlander is fully aware of and believe? I personally believe that if you're going to have a change of hearts and turn to the light, you're goint to have to seek that forgiveness BEFORE you actually die. It's abit like the Christian belief, isn't it?

[Elin]

Well, I suppose they're sweet-talked into it. You know: "Shai'tan isn't all that bad, really! Everyone tells lies about him, you'll be rewarded with immortality!" Etc... and I suppose the damning your soul part is written in very fine print.

It's a career of sorts for someone with no other chance for advancement. "Give me your poor, your unvanted..."

"Give me your poor, your huddled masses, the wretched refuse of your teeming shores..." Isn't that an American patriotic poem?

*wonders what sort of parallells Jacob is drawing between the US and the DO* :D

[LaughingTurtle]

"Give me your poor, your huddled masses, the wretched refuse of your teeming shores..." Isn't that an American patriotic poem?

Yes, in fact it's located on the statue of liberty.

Yes, come to the dark side....become American :D

As to the whole darkfriend thing...why are there so many criminals in the world? Most know that what they are doing is wrong and yet they continue to do it. Some do it to survive, others to get ahead in life with less work, while others do it just for the pure fun of it. The same probably goes for becoming a darkfriend. A bored prince wants something to do, and like Elin said, is lured by the seductive offer of Shai'tan. Maybe a poor second born farm hand wants to belong to something bigger, and maybe a spurned lover wants to get back at someone....

Or maybe they're all just crazy....;)

[Aragorn]

Jacob, I respect your authority and all, but if you say "randlander" again, I'm gonna have to smack you.

[Ba'alzamon]

If you think about it, being a darkfriend is alot like worshipping the devil (I am not saying i do). The key elements are the same, people are turning from what they believe in, that the creator made "Randland" and everything that it entails. And instead believing in the dark and evil Shai'tan (now i've done it) who they think will give them power and land and everything else the day he breaks free of the bore. Well we ahev these very people in our everyday life, satanic cults and the like, these people have denounced god (not saying i believe in god either) and now spend their days worshipping the mischievous red devil who is silently brooding in our planets depths awaiting his time. This has kind of gone astray from the posting, so i will just say this, darkfriends may seem stupid to those who walk in the light, but in the eyes of others like themselves, they are smart for staking their claim on the day of return. Its just a matter of opinion.

[Indigo Montoya]

I agree with alot of what you say Ba'alzamon but I do not think even they look at it as a matter of opinion. They are just predators looking to trade their souls for power and/or riches by siding with the only superior being that seems to take an active roll in the "World". They trade their souls for the path of least resistance to accomplish their goals. That's my opinion :confused:

[supuradam]

it's just a soul though... most people you ask, or at least in my opinion, if they aren't extremely pious, will not take the concept of a soul too seriously... i know i don't, i just sort of believe in it just so i don't get screwed over in the end if this heaven/hell stuff does exist... anyways, i'm sure the darkfreinds think that trading their souls for immortality, or boundless power is like trading in a fiat for a lexus, an awesome deal.

[Jacob]

The thought that just came to me is as follows: To be evil is not the same as being a Dark friend, but only *evil* people (with a few exceptions) become Friends of the Dark. Thus, I could imagine that the people that do swear to the Dark consider themselves "screwed" already since they have forsaken the light even before swearing to the dark?

Superadam - are you male or female?! Anyway, IF you promise your soul to the dark one, doesn't that assume that you have a soul? From RJ's own explanation, every Randlander *knows* that there is a Creator and a Dark one and that you have a soul and are reborn. This is the reason that there are no religion in Randland - "the truth" is so widely known that religion is simply redundant.

Aragorn, if you question my authority again, I'm going to smack YOU! :-) Randland and Randlanders have been the accepted name for the inhabitants of the World features in the Wheel of Time for a long time, just as the lands between the Aryth ociean and the Spine of the World is known as Randland Propper. Except for that it's now called "the westlands" in the new RPG thingy or something. That's just a stupid name though ~nods~

I do be aware of that poem, yea (though my quote was inaccurate). It did be a spur of the moment joke that came to me :-)

[supuradam]

good point jacob. and since you asked, i am a dude. do i sound like a girl or something?

[Mithrandir]

Gna gna :p

But is it so hard to believe that persons can become dark friends?
Look at our world today; how much 'dark friends' aren't walking around on the surface of it?
So i think it isn't a big step between hardcore criminal and dark friend.

[Elin]

it's just a soul though... most people you ask, or at least in my opinion, if they aren't extremely pious, will not take the concept of a soul too seriously... i know i don't, i just sort of believe in it just so i don't get screwed over in the end if this heaven/hell stuff does exist...

Interesting... Pascal's Wager can work... :)

Sorry, couldn't resist. :) I promise I won't turn this into a religion thread.

Anyway, about Darkfriends again. Don't they believe that the DO will win? If he does, he'll remake the Wheel as he likes it, and the Darkfriends won't be damned after all... Of course, the DO will probably conveniently forget his promise or something...

Hmm, do we know what the DO actually wants? What's his goal - to just destroy everything, or what?

[supuradam]

i think the dark one's jealous of the creator. sort of like paul mccartney always in lenin's shadow....
what's pascal's wager though?

[balefire]

Originally posted by Elin
mm, do we know what the DO actually wants? What's his goal - to just destroy everything, or what?

If my info from some other site is correct, the DO aims for nothing less than the total destruction of everything, including the Source.

[Reuvyn]

who says if they root for DO they get damned. They have a win win situation. If DO wins they win. If DO loses they get reborn where does it say they have to go to purgetory?

[QuirkyTemplate]

Pascal's Wager:

If there is a God, He is infinitely incomprehensible, since, having, neither parts nor limits, He has no affinity to us. We are then incapable of knowing either what He is or if He is ... you must wager. It is not optional. You are embarked. Which will you choose then? Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager then without hesitation that he is.

And it has a bad rap because people instantly assume Pascal was talking about 'wagering' for Christianity when he's only talking about theism vs. anything that isn't theism. I'd argue that it's a valid argument, but not very convincing at all.

Oh, and darkfriends are twits! :)

[Beppie]

Well, let's look at one of the most sympathetic views of a Darkfriend that RJ gives us- Ingtar. He turned to the DO because he felt that Shienar would be overrun with Trollocs and minions of evil if they kept resisting. He felt that if he turned to the Dark, then he would be able to prevent this from happenning. I think it also goes to show that while Darkfriends all do evil things, they don't necessarily have evil souls to begin with.

Let's also look at Aes Sedai and why some of them become Black Ajah. These are people who are very powerful- and yet they must limit this power with oaths, and while they certainly have a lot of influence they can't rule anywhere except one tiny island. While eventually they find that serving the DO is just as restrictive, the power hungry among them are easily seduced by the promise of attaining what they may see as their "rightful" position in society.

And keep in mind that a lot of Darkfriends ARE just plain stupid- just bored farmwives and nobles with nothing better to do. It's only recently that they've realised that what they're doing is actually going to result in them doing really evil things. Like rebellious teenagers who don't really want to do anything wrong, but in order to rebel they have to get involved in bad stuff. They probably don't think of the eternity of pain and torture thing- if that even happens. Seems to me that all WoTers are forever reincarnated (although only those bound to the Wheel are reborn again and again for the same sort of purpose), so you just start again with a fresh slate. Darkfriends probably don't know that the DO can get a hold on your soul and stop this happenning- and I get the impression that he only does this when he wants to use the soul to manipulate someone else, or when a Darkfriend has seriously caught his attention by fucking up. Most garden-variety Darkfriends over the last 3000 years probably haven't even caught his attention.

For the Forsaken, it's a pretty different case, of course. The books tell us pretty much why all of them turned to the Dark, and all of the reasons seem pretty plausible- remembering that during the War of Power the Dark controlled much of the land, and it looked like they were going to win.

[Kolo al'Jaden]

The Wheel Weaves as the wheel wills? If that is so.. then those who are destined to be dark friends, will be Dark Friends and will serve there master. The "Creator" must know everything right? For isn't it he that spins out the web. Now, there throws a curve; if you forsake the light and the Creator then you also must forsake the pattern. What percissly is the Dark One up to? If he wanted to destroy everything he could have had all his Dark Aes Sedia in the War of Power balefire everything, thus having total destruction. No, I think that he wants to unweave the pattern then take the creators place as the weaver. So going for the Dark would not be as the wheel wills cause the creator dosn't want his "children" to become evil. That means that the saying "The wheel weaves as the wheel wills" is wrong! wow I got off on a rabbit trail.