Dragons, Creatures, etc.

[archely]

Okay, so RJ has blatantly left vacant one staple spot of fantasy. What do you think a dragon is? Numerous times RJ has told us that legend fades to myth fades to...yadda yadda yadda. We are told that nobody recognizes the form on Rand/LTT's banner or on Rands arms. So what is/was it? What I'm asking is what do you think it is based on? Do you think it is a fanciful image, or do you think that it has some basis in reality?

Slightly, but not necessarily, related, what do you think are the things in the "high passes" that the worms are afraid of? And what do you think worms turn into?

Another creature/legend we hear about is the people with faces or mouths on their bellies. I don't remember which. Anyway, do you think that these too are simply fanciful tales? I have heard that stories like this were told in our world, so it is possible RJ is just using this, but do you think he plans something for these things?

[Elin]

Hmm... I have no idea if dragons existed once in Randland. Maybe they're extinct or something. But why name LTT after that kind of creature? They can't have existed in the AoL, because there would surely have been some sort of memory of them... Oh well.

About the people with mouths in their bellies and such, I think it's taken from the old (medieval?) maps where people just drew in fanciful creatures on the blank spots. "Here Be Dragons" - that sort of thing. I doubt he means to use them for anything.

[baxts]

sum1 correct me if im wrong, but werent the myths asbout people with faces and stuff on their bellies just the fanciful rumors that came from shara?? just the bollocks stories that people spread when they think people might believe that theve had great adventures and stuff.

bloody good point that wit da dragons and worms tho, does it say sumwhere that the worms do in fact turn into something, or are you guessing??

[archely]

Actually, a couple forsaken are talking about the worms, i believe they refer to them as jumara?, and saying how they were stuck in the larval stage.


As for the people with faces in their bellies....i've heard that these are based on eskimos, people thought they had faces in their bellies because of all the furs.

However, I'm pretty sure that these stories come from Jain Farstrider, who has been to Shara, and we may see some more about that as Jain is currently hanging out with Mat.

[Theoban]

It doesn't matter if there were Dragons or not, as we have legends with them in and they don't exist.

Also, the name for Dragon in the Old Tongue is a'man, and since this is part of Asha'man, which means guardian of truth and justice, we can assume that LTT was called the Dragon because of Asha'man. Maybe it didn't even mean Dragon then, and he may have only been called so because of his banner, and LTT was a scholar and could know about ancient legends. The association between LTT, dragons and the word a'man could just be a mistranslation in the post Breaking world. A'man could have originally meant something like Justice, or Guardian, and LTT could have been known both as the a'man and the Dragon, and these two words could have got mixed up.

[archely]

Originally posted by Theoban
It doesn't matter if there were Dragons or not, as we have legends with them in and they don't exist.

Also, the name for Dragon in the Old Tongue is a'man, and since this is part of Asha'man, which means guardian of truth and justice, we can assume that LTT was called the Dragon because of Asha'man.

Theoban, you are missing the point. The question was what do you think the Dragon in RJ's world is based on. I would say that even in our world it is far too much of a coincidence to say that tons of different cultures just "happened" to make up dragons or similar creatures. One hypothesis for this might be that different peoples found old bones and invented what they thought these bones belonged to. This might be what the dragons in our culture are based on. Not to mention the fact that I personally don't believe you can say for certain that they didn't exist....but that is an entirely different conversation.

Whatever you are saying about LTT and the Asha'man needs clearing up to me. Why would LTT be associated with the Asha'man at all? This is Rand's creation. LTT was an Aes Sedai. I don't have my books with me, but possibly you are getting this from Rand saying that the name Asha'man was a "gift" from LTT? Even so, why does this have to be any more than a fragment of the old tongue that Rand hears? I see no reason to assume that LTT was called the Dragon because of Asha'man. Even if there is some association, there is no reason to think that Asha'man came before LTT being called Dragon. If I am missing a point, please explain it to me.

[Theoban]

When I said asha'man, I didn't mean the Asha'man, I meant the word itself, as it meant a Guardian of truth or justice, and this word was certainly in circulation at the time. The word asha'man must have been around for a long time, whilst LTT was only around for a small amount at the end of the AOL, this would definately predate LTT being called the Dragon.

[Jacob]

I am fairly convinced that the Dragons as such are Randland myth. It only makes sence that a world as rich as RJ's Wheel of Time world would have mythology, we've seen plenty of examples of this. Whatever you say about the qualty of WOT in comparison to other works of fantasy, I think that most people would agree that RJ is the best world builder out there. In our world, we have dinasaur bones and such that might have inspired people to invent different dragons (frankly, often these look so different between cultures that it's only due to translators that they have the same name), in Randland, there ARE actually great flying creatures. And who knows what some Aes Sedai may have seen traveling to different worlds via portal stones? Certainly I think that we've seen creaturs already that could be called "dragons" if you leave abit of room for interpreting what a dragon is.

That Lews Therin was given this name feels quite natural to me. The Dragon is a creature of Mystery/mythology, a creature to inspire awe, what better creature to liken a great leader too. People, especially in times of great trouble need symbols and as much as anything, Lews Therin was a symbol for people to gather around. Lews Therin was a hero to inspire and give hope just by being there.

[Eluzhun]

RJ takes a lot of his ideas from ancient history, in particular oriental (sic?). The dragons on rands arm and banner sound very much like the dragons in asian history that we see now in parades....the long snake like things with lion heads....just a thought

[Larkin]

This is not that serious a matter.

I like that dragon=a'man thing, I missed that somewhere I guess, but its really cool.

The dragon on the banner is a dragon, plane and simple.

And worms are pretty nasty things. I don't go fishing, and I have no problem saying it, worms are pretty D@*^ nasty, slimy, dirty things, it would be kinda neat to have giant man eating worms that can move really fast running around the blight, kinda lends itself to the blight being rotten. Rotten apples have worms in them, right, the blight's rotten, think of it a really big apple with really big worms.

And were have you been, the people with faces on there bellies are tellatubbies. The tellatubbies live just outside of Shara.

[balefire]

Originally posted by Eluzhun
RJ takes a lot of his ideas from ancient history, in particular oriental (sic?). The dragons on rands arm and banner sound very much like the dragons in asian history that we see now in parades....the long snake like things with lion heads....just a thought

Oh yes, the dragons you see in WOT are very much like Chinese dragons. And the Seanchan culture sounds very chinese to me.

[Larkin]

Ancient history is all fine and good, but the people with the faces on their bellies "ARE" tellatubbies.

[wingo]

I still like the idea that Randland is just a future earth. Really didn't anyone else get the feeling when reading the prologue eye of the world that they were in a modern kitchen? Okay so maybe that was just me...
couldn't dragons really just be a left over myth.

[radarofpolo]

No one in any of the books has really talked of dragons only of The Dragon and him being reborn. I have no idea where the name came from, maybe a myth of the AoL?

I wonder if Aginor created the telletubbies. Sounds just like him. :D

[supuradam]

pinky winky's my favorite...
wait.. did i just say that out loud?!

[wingo]

isn't it tinky winky....?
oh god why do i know that!
::smacks head:: get out of my brain bad teletubbies::smacks head::

[supuradam]

now you know how i feel!

[Mael]

What if Dragons are a creature from one of the Portal Stone worlds? Golm and Raken and various other Seachan creatures wre pulled from these worlds to help fight the shadow spawn, so who is to say that a Dragon was not, or at least one was scene, and that person told a story, and that person told, etc... ? Just a thought :)

[wingo]

Now theres a nice clean solution

[astraea]

The Dragon looks like the Chinese Dragon to me... but also even in our culture the Dragon is symbolic - a mythic powerful immortal beast, a warrior and habourer of knowledge, either good or evil as the story needs... LTT was the Dragon too, maybe the Dragon is meant to be a symbol of the Light, the Creator's perfect creation, or something, his representative.
By trying to draw the nations to him Rand, in a sense, is inheriting the legacy of Artur Hawkring, otherwise known as Artur Paendrag (i.e. Dragon), and this just screams Arthur Pendragon and his Dragon banner under which he brought peace to Briton. That fits in with all the other Arthurian references too.