New guy sounding off

[Vanidar]

Hi all. Just found the site and was browsing around. Started to follow this thread and damned if I didn't join up to toss something out there regarding the whole "Rand gonna die" bit. I just finished re-reading Winter's Heart and noticed a very small wrinkle. Near the end of the prologue Lews Therin mumbles someting about "We are not builders, not you, or I, or the other one". My point being, does Rand have another passenger? It could be a neat tie-in to Rand loving three women...split into three and reincarnated? Nice symmetry there. Also, at another point (not sure where) Lews Therin raves about having to share his head with two madmen. Anybody else catch that? It wouldn't be the first time for some scanty foreshaowing paying off in a big way later. Just wanted to take a tangent and introduce myself. Hope to see you all on here sometime.

[Jacob]

Err....actually, I hadn't caught ANY of that when I read the books....hmm...I guess I'll have to look it up, nice spotting! And we hope to see you around too, of course §:-)

[flyingdutchman]

thank you for proving my point!
i read this last year on some other site already, including matching all the folk in rand's head up with the three ladies.
no wonder the regular posters feel there are to few new posters; the discussion is simply not up to date!

now Jacob, to restore some of your ego, if we manage to get that fixed, this will be the best wot site i've ever seen.:)

[Jacob]

Ahem....you want to restore my ego by claiming that this ISN'T_already_the best WOT site ever? :-)

One of the problems of being as old a community as wotism is (and unfortunately, not one always that welcoming to newcommers, since we've tended to be a rather close close knit commity) is that there is this feeling established that everything has already been discussed to death and there IS nothing new to come up with. But...of course, there ARE new things to come up with, which is why we need new people comming in all the time to supply fresh ideas. Some new people (perhaps watching this) don't want to post their ideas (or register even) because they fear they can only come up with "old" stuff....to that I say: So what?! It may be old to some people here, but it's bound to be new to some people atleast. And...who knows, it may be "new" altogether.

Now, to one of the points raised in the original post to this thread:

I actually remember that bit about "the other one" now, and I think that something has been disgussed about it, but I think the discusssion fell flat on it's head because noone could figure out who it was. I find it unlikely that it's someone in Rand's head though. Shouldn't Rand know about it atleast in that case? I'm leaning towards Ishamael/Moridin myself as being "the other one". He seems to me to be another of the "constants" in these battles between good and bad, dark and light. He holds a unique possition for the shadow, different from all the other forsaken.

Also, since it's actually in my sig (sorto), I believe that you might(Vanidar) refer to Lews Therin saying something to the effect of I would not mind you so much in my head if you were not so clearly mad

[Ulk]

I'd heard this discussed somewhere too... maybe wotmania ~ducks~
Anyway, i like to think its ishy/mor too, its just that he's not exactly in rands/lews' head.

[LaughingTurtle]

Let's hear it for the rehash! I would rather have a community that brings up important theories to rehash over again than a dead community. I mean, maybe by the time it's gone over again, somebody will have thought up something new, or when somebody rereads the series they saw something new. I don't know, lets just say repitition is better than nothing.

[QuirkyTemplate]

About him sharing his head with two other people ...


You got Lewis Therin

You got Rand

You got the Aes Sedai that Rand is bonded to.

3!

Sound like a good explanation?

[Jacob]

Errr....No.

If you count bonds, shouldn't you add in Aviendha, Min and Elayne too?

I still say that it's Moridin/Ishy. Maybe "that otherone" could refer to Rand (thus also Lews T) actually meeting him in Shadar Logoth,without finding out who he was. He's just "that other one". I'll stick with that until someone else comes up with something better ~nods~

[LaughingTurtle]

Ummm no jacob....cause didn't Rand bond to them AFTER the prologue...(which is when he said that)...i seem to remember that that happend like in the middle of the book. ;)

Though yes, i too like the idea of Ishy/Mor, don't ask why, but i do!

[Ulk]

aha! its alanna then.. or alana.. or whatever her name is! she would have been the only one in his head at the time! i've solved it! :D

[Vanidar]

Whew, talk about a crash course in site politics... My own feeling is that I enjoy re-reading the books and I like rehashing the material. You never know when a dialogue will take an unexpected twist. Everybody takes away a different mental picture and interpretation of the clues and foreshadowing. Different combinations of people can cook up some great stuff.
Back to my Original thought, I was considering Rand's titles to the different factions. The primary roles are Coramoor, Car'a'carn and Dragon Reborn. One for each personality? Lews is, or would be, literally the Dragon, reborn. Rand the Aiel is the Car'a'carn and the mysterious third is the Coramoor. It's only recently, in Rand time, that He has becme more comfortable with Lews. The third incarnation could only be starting to emerge in fullfillment of the Prophecies. What the hell its just speculation. Looking forward to a reply.

[Pope Trevor]

Well thje first thing i have to say is i'm real drunk right now (like Flying Dutchman ever time he shows up;) ), so i if i don't make sense just ignore me.

The numbers three and thirteen always seem to be of importance.

I've never thought that three people might be in Rand's head, though the idea does certanily have merit. and i like the idea of the third being Ishy/Moridin

The three different titles for Rand is also an interesting twist.

Oh, and Vanidar, if you want a real good crash course in site policitics, just try to piss somebody off in the "General Discussion" Section. It's a good way to find out that nobody (or at least almost nobody) takes what you say too seriously.

Once again, if I didn't make sense, blame it on the booze.

[Ulk]

i'll only blame it on the booze cos you may have skipped over my previous post in your drunken ignorance! i'm right, and everyone else is wrong! :p

[LaughingTurtle]

Whatever you say...A-HOLE!!!:p (talking to Ulk, so don't think i'm talk'n to you other people)

Bet you wish you never told me that, eh??

[flyingdutchman]

Bonds don't count, because they only relay feelings and not voices. Doesn't it make sense that when rand has a link to the dragon in the age before him, there could be a similar effect for Lews Therin, or for the dragon in the next age?

Oh by the way, I resent this idea that i'm drunk every time i log on! one out of two tops! It shows in my spelling anyway, so go check.;)

[Ulk]

no LT-dude, i fucking love it. a-hole!

yeah, but she's still a presence in his mind. a presence that lews would have to share rands mind with.

[flyingdutchman]

but not talk to.

"I thought I could build , Lews Therin murmured in his head. I was wrong. We are not builders, not you ,or I, or the other one. We are destroyers. Destroyers."

Why would Alanna be a destroyer?
I think 'destoyer' refers to something stronger than smashing a vase, something like breaking the world, ending an age, or other dragon reborn stuff.

[QuirkyTemplate]

He also could have been refering to himself in the third person

He is crazy ya know.

[Ulk]

good point FDM, my theory was pretty much just based on the thing where he was "you and the other one" or whatever in his mind.

[QuirkyTemplate]

I still say third person is the best bet. You guys are reading into it a little too much! This aint no Qur'ran! :)

[magatsu17]

I don't think it's Mor/Ishy, cause that doesn't make sense, why would Lew Therin be talkin about Ishy as if he were apart of Rand and LT, that doesn't make sense, I think there will be a third person involved, Maybe this person will show it self when Rand Fakes his own death,

[Ulk]

yeah, maybe its the EVIL Rand.. ~spooky noises~

[QuirkyTemplate]

Well if there IS three people in there, I bet you that all three are merged into one single personality next book. That'd be strange.

[Ulk]

yeah, evil rand would change rand into an abusive lover. :eek:

[magatsu17]

Maybe the third person is the merged Rand and Lews Therin, then his name will be

Land al'Therin,
Rewd al'Ther
Rawd al'Theror
Lewd al'Thorin.

[QuirkyTemplate]

yeah, evil rand would change rand into an abusive lover.

Yeah ... RJ is into that crap too so I wouldn't put it past 'em.

[Ulk]

give RJ some credit QT, he's not into it as much as a lot of other authors are.. goodkind and martin to name a couple.

[LaughingTurtle]

Yeah RJ, is like the "diet coke" in the graphic violence department. He has violence, but no where near as Martin's hardcore "Jolt cola"

Hmmm killing someone with the power (lightning bolt) compared to bashing their skull in through their visor in their helmet(details omited)....:eek:

[QuirkyTemplate]

Okay, I'll give ya that. Goodkind is like constantly trying (and failing) to shock you with how disgusting he can be.

Not read much Martin.

RJ doesn't come out an' say it ... but that whole Faile thing? Comeon you know who Faile is in real life don't ya? Give ya a hint, her first name rhymes with Carry-it. (as in, "here's my clothes woman, now carry-it")

j/k! :)

[Ulk]

Martin does it really well QT. he's an amazing writer. read him now!! :mad: :D

[Larkin]

If Lews is complaining about having to share his head with two "madmen", wouldn't that eleminate Alanna as a possibility?

Concerning the theory that the other madman/voice is someone not connected with Rand, I think that is more likely than some other personna that we haven't met yet that might be crawling around in Rand's head.

I mean, throughout the story, there are prophisies from the Ker. Cycle that you would think applied to the dragon, and some sound like it is the dragon that will do some such thing or another, only someone else does all the work and fulfills the verse. One says something like, 'He will call the animals and woodland creatures or something', and that's got to be talking about Perrin. Nnyve healed Logain and company, but the foreshadowing in TDR said that he would do it (he got rid of the taint but Nnyve did the rest). Mat could have fulfilled some or will later, and Moiraine could have or will as well.

If other people can fulfill the Prophesies of the Dragon, why can't LTT be crammed up in more than one head.

If there is another DR out there it kinda makes sense.

I doubt it would be either Perrin or Mat.
Perrin is obviously a builder (blacksmith thing going on there).
Mat... ...Mat's just not a choice.

But Logain???
He was the coolest person in tEotW.
He could have been DR?????
That weird Min Veiwing of Rand and some other guy merging into one (Maybe Rand+Logain=LTT, literally a split personality)
That other Min Veiwing that's been beat to death about glory and honor to come.
And there is somewhere a quote from Moraine that says something like the hope of the world rests in a lie (SR or tFoH, it's got to be there, I just can't find it).

But then, Narishma hears voices too (Cadsun. Question) and he "might" be HE WHO COMES AFTER, but HWCA might just be Logain.

Ishi??? If Ishi and LTT are in a neverending battle, why would LTT be inside Ishi's head. Really, how are you going to fight some voice in your head.

[freak2tc]

ok just guess.....

if LT had the previous dragon in his head during his life, then goes mad and dies now he thinks he is still hearing the same voice plus Rands. the fact hat rand can't hear the third voice makes me think it isn't real just LT maddness/memories so we can also guess that posibly in the next age rand will be in someone elses head and think he is still hearing LT.


freak2tc

[Larkin]

I want to think that LT wasn't mad when he died, but then he did blow himself up (sort of), who knows?

That previous dragon idea is pretty cool.

I still want to think that Logain has a far more important role than even the hints ands such lead us to beleive. There is no other character in the book that RJ tries to make us like as much as he does Logain. He's the underdog, yet he is also one of the most powerful people in the world. He has the ability to be the best, smarter than Taim, as strong as Rand, cool little abilities like seeing taver'n (Suain S.=Amrln Logain has same ability), everything about him ties him to power. He has A.S. warders (again, sort of), and how many of them? Underrated, by far. Who else has as much unanswered hype built up? I say Moraine comes in at a close second but nobody else comes close.

If LT has to be connected with someone else, why not someone alive, and if it has to be someone alive, why not Logain.

[balefire]

Originally posted by Larkin
I want to think that LT wasn't mad when he died, but then he did blow himself up (sort of), who knows?

I still want to think that Logain has a far more important role than even the hints ands such lead us to beleive. There is no other character in the book that RJ tries to make us like as much as he does Logain. He's the underdog, yet he is also one of the most powerful people in the world. He has the ability to be the best, smarter than Taim, as strong as Rand, cool little abilities like seeing taver'n (Suain S.=Amrln Logain has same ability), everything about him ties him to power. He has A.S. warders (again, sort of), and how many of them? Underrated, by far. Who else has as much unanswered hype built up? I say Moraine comes in at a close second but nobody else comes close.

LTT wasn't mad when he died; he got Healed by Ishamael. And I don't think he heard any voices. There's no mention of that, & someone who keeps hearing voices will have trouble functioning. Again, no mention of that. Logain has a large part to play in the story. Min's viewing saw that he was destined for glory. But I'm not sure if he's ta'veren.

[freak2tc]

i don't really buy the Logain theory. sorry. not that i don't believe
that Logain couldn't posibly here LT but it just seems unlikly that the LT in Rand's head and the LT in Logain's head (if there is one) could be the same one. e.g. when LT talks aout having to mad men in his head how could he say that inless he is in both heads at once? therefore he would have to be the same one.
also Logain hasn't shown ny signs of hearing any voices(at least not in my memory) i think min's veiw of Logain's glory is him ruling the Black Tower or at least replacing Taim.

freak2tc