Aelfinn-Eelfinn and perhaps Thom

[Raistlyne]

First - since this topic has been discussed a lot; I apologize if I am repeating what's been said, but hey - its a topic I like. And one I've argued over since book five, but I keep seeing more and more evidence I'm right. Maybe its wishful thinking.

Reasons why Thom will go in and retrive Moiraine:

First off - one of Egwene's dreams.
Along with a series of other dreams, she sees Thom pulling a blue stone from a fire.

Of course, thats the one thats most discussed - but here's some more that actually has me hooked. If needed I'll scoure through the books to tell where it was said.

Snakes and Foxes -
First off its been suggested that this game "is a metaphor for dealing with the inhabitants of Aelfinn and Eelfinn." (Wheel of Time RPG, Wheel of Time companion book, and likely in the series as well)

So what do we know about the game?
According to Mat, the only way to win is to break the rules. (said when Olver wanted to play)

So what are the rules of Aelfinn and Eelfinn?
"Good. You have brought no lamps, no torches, as the agreement was, and is, and ever will be. You have no iron? No instruments of music?"

Okay - so here's what I am getting from this. One of these rules has to be broken to win. What is meant by winning I'm not sure... but I think Mat lost since he nearly got hung.

Anyway, as for my leap of faith - here it goes.
Who better to have an instrument of music than a gleeman? Should I say several?

Its a theory anyway...

[QuirkyTemplate]

Out fiddle them to death?

Thom went down to Aelfinn cause he was lookin' for a soul to steal.

He was in a bind, cause he was way behind an' wilin' to make a deal.

*That* should be interesting.

[ShadowReaver]

interesting indeed. . . .i am totally convinced Thom will retrieve Moraine. . .i'm not sure if rescue is the right word. . . .who is to say she is a captive or that she just simply cannot find her own way back?

[Jacob]

Yea...that theory is probably shared by most...except for those that think that Moiriane is really that Aes Sedai that Tuon "found" (the damne we see on the ship).

I support the theory too...but damn, Thom had better get a moveon getting to the tower of Ghenji to get her out! (and how will he even get the idea to try? For all he knows, Moirain is dead. Hmm...)

[Ulk]

maybe its one of those widely believed theories like Taimandred...then RJ will come along and smite us with his wisdom!.. or some such

[Piney K]

I personally think that rather than any of the things Thom is not allowed to take in , he will outwit them . Thom was known as the Grey Fox and his abilities in Daes Daemar , the Game of Houses are (were) legendary . I think that perhaps when Thom meets one of , Perrin (wolfdream) , Egwene (dreamer) or Min (viewings) , something they will tell him will remind him of Moiraine's letter . I think she left something in that to guide him to the Tower of Ghenjei . Remember Birgette said it was almost impossible to escape , for someone with Thom's intelligence maybe it's possible .

[Reuvyn]

i like that instrument theory



(i love digging up old threads:) )

[Buckweet]

the fiddle?

[baxts]

Yea...that theory is probably shared by most...except for those that think that Moiriane is really that Aes Sedai that Tuon "found" (the damne we see on the ship).

i cant believe anybody still believes that!!!

one of the Aes Sedai recognizes her and says outright that she is.....cant remember her name, but someone else, Merlille rings a bell for some reason, not sure if that is right or not, but it is stated outright that it is NOT Moiraine

[Beppie]

I think a more interesting question is how will Moiraine have changed when Thom retrives her?

I know there's a theory about that she will have been stilled, hence the breaking of the bond with Lan, but that never quite worked for me. Remember when Siuan was Healed, it brought back part of her bond with Ajen? That indicates that the bond is able to survive stilling in some manner, although it would be muted.

More likely, I think is that something happened to break all bonds that held Moiraine to the real world- warder bonds, oaths etc. Perhaps it was part of the price she had to pay, if she got the chance to ask the *finns for anything- the price was that she was now bound to them, and was unable to continue any bonds from her previous life.

Another thought is that she was killed in fact (which definitely breaks all bonds), and Thom's putting his hand into fire is somehow entering the world of *finns, through the Tower of Ghenji, since the ter'angreal is fucked, and he asks for her back as one of his requests. I'm sure a game of snakes and foxes could be worked into that somehow (perhaps the price that Thom must pay- or the way he avoids paying the price).

[epiph]

siuan's bond with ajen wasn't brought back...it's only that at that point, she was so overcome with emotion and the feeling of security that came from being aes sedai again that she could grieve. she just stuffed up her grief to deal with the problems at hand until that point and then she lost it...she was close to her warder...it was less the backlash and more her being human.

[isaac]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Beppie
and Thom's putting his hand into fire is somehow entering the world of *finns, through the Tower of Ghenji, since the ter'angreal is fucked, and he asks for her back as one of his requests

One of the ter'angreal was damaged, the one from Tear is still OK. Who says that Thom can't enter the world of the finns through this one?

[baxts]

coz theres two different doorways for the ttwo types of finns. We know that the two types are linked on some way, but from what we've seen they appear tobe very speperate worlds. the doorway left is only able to access the more agreeable finnns, the ones that give answers, not the ones that grant wishes

[Demandred]

I believe Moiraine and Lanfear are two souls occupying the same body, that is, Cyndane. I'm hoping that it turns out Moiraine is bound to the Wheel now, as a hero for the deeds she has done. Then when Cyndane is killed and her soul goes to the World of Dreams, she can be removed from there the way Birgitte was removed. Wouldn't THAT be wicked!

[NOuseFORaNAME]

Well I think Thom's goin to go through the Tear doorway with his flute and demand for the Aelfinn to take him to the Eelfinn or else he'll play "Three Girls in the Meadow" over and over again.

[Warder Trained]

Maybe Thom'll luck out, and when he comes to fetch Moiraine she'll have switched bodies with Lanfear.

I've always thought that Cyndane was a waste of legendary looks. Yay for Thom as he hits the jackpot!

[isaac]

Originally posted by baxts
coz theres two different doorways for the ttwo types of finns. We know that the two types are linked on some way, but from what we've seen they appear tobe very speperate worlds. the doorway left is only able to access the more agreeable finnns, the ones that give answers, not the ones that grant wishes

In Winter's Heart, Cyndane says she was held by the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn. This indicates that there is someway to travel between there worlds through the two doorways. However I think Thom probably will enter through the tower of Ghenji.

The bit about breaking the rules is in the Shadow Rising:
"Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to daze, iron to bind ".
Maybe Thom will need all four to be successful.

[Dhelvanen]

i would like to know what was in that letter that moraine left for thom before she disappeared. and she did mention something about knowing the man she was going to marry better than elayne. she could've just been saying that she doesnt know, as she pointed out, but who knows.

i wonder if thom is going to possibly meet up with auldra (the illuminator who's trying to perfect matches)....if so, he would have the means to produce fire, along with music. we know he's couragous, and for the iron.....i dunno....
unless perrin is involved in the rescue somehow....being a blacksmith he works with iron, and he does know about the tower of whats-it-name. but that is reaching pretty far out there....

[epiph]

for some reason i always assumed that perrin would be in on the rescue...probably because he DOES know about the towner of genji. but then, maybe mat has genji in one of those memories.

[Shadow Angel]

Damn It! I was just typing for like 20 mintues this big spiel about my theory, and I hit the wrone key.... deleted the whole damn thing. Well, to sum it up. Moraine some how gets back to the real world of the books and is crazy from her time in Finnland or maybe that was the price she had to pay. But anywho she is back and she seeks out Thom cause she loves him... (hinted to in the books) and Thom helps her become sane again (hint stone sets on head, head holds brain... for most... fire equals chaos... chaos could be interpreted as insanity.) Well thats it in a short shot.

[epiph]

nah, dude, we've GOT to go back to finnland...and the tower of genji has to be used or it wouldn't have been mentioned. OH! i remember why perrin has to be part of it...because i think perrin is the one who has to kill slayer.

[Dhelvanen]

that would make sense....perrin kills slayer, thom rescues moraine, everybody's happy.....

[Shadow Angel]

Ok... Perrin is walking in the Wolf Dream, and sees Moraine in the Tower and kills slayer and then Thom helps her regain her sanity. I think RJ will put a twist on it and not the usual man rescue endangered lady.

[epiph]

of course, it also seems like mat would want in on anything related to finnland...

[Alys]

We know that RJ likes to tie in Greek, Norse, etc. myths into his stories. Here's a bit about Orpheus I found at: http://www.loggia.com/myth/orpheus.html

I'm sorry for the length. :D

((Orpheus was a legendary singer and musician in Greek mythology. Indeed, many stories about Orpheus focus on his ability to enchant audiences with a song. From his exploits with the Argonauts, to his most memorable myth - that of rescuing his wife Eurydice from the Underworld - Orpheus dazzled listeners with his mellifluous voice in tale after tale. To learn more about this master musician, read on.

According to some sources, Orpheus was the son of the god Apollo and the Muse Calliope. These parents - a god of music and the Muse of epic poetry - help to explain the origin of Orpheus's extraordinary musical gift. And the power of this god-like gift for song was undeniable. The ancient poets Aeschylus and Euripides both tell of how Orpheus used his talents to charm wild animals, trees, and rocks.

Even Hades, the stern and gloomy god of the Underworld, was not immune to the haunting magic of Orpheus's singing. For in one of the most compelling stories about Orpheus, the musician descends to the dark Underworld and begs Hades to release his wife Eurydice from the realm of the dead. After explaining how his young bride was accidentally killed, Orpheus uses his powers as a musician to persuade Hades to let him bring Eurydice back to the land of the living. In Ovid's version of the story, the god of the Underworld agrees to the request, with one condition - Orpheus must not look upon Eurydice until they both reach the surface of the earth. However, the enthusiastic bard forgets this warning and glances at his lovely wife just before they are free of the Underworld. At this moment, Orpheus once again loses his wife.
(snipped)))

I know that in Ovid's version Eurydice is not saved in the end, but I was wondering if anyone knew of another version of the story?

Thom and Orpheus do sound similar. What I'm getting at is that if RJ may have paralleled Thom to Orpheus (As well as paralleling him to Tom Bombadil in the LotR), then maybe in the story above, there can hold a clue or two about the possible rescue of Moiraine?

Here's another wacked out theory that is unsubstantiated: What if Lanfear and Moiraine killed each other in *finnland. The DO took both of them and resurrected Lanfear, but kept Moiraine in death with him. He does have power over the grave, and this could include taking someone that might have become a Hero.

RJ changes around the basis of the myth, has Thom ask for Moiraine as one of his wishes, then instead of charming the DO, Thom charms the *finn with music, breaks the rules of the game, and does not have to pay the price for her return.

*breathes* Just a guess..

Kat

[archely]

Originally posted by Alys
Here's another wacked out theory that is unsubstantiated: What if Lanfear and Moiraine killed each other in *finnland. The DO took both of them and resurrected Lanfear, but kept Moiraine in death with him. He does have power over the grave, and this could include taking someone that might have become a Hero.


First off...

~isn't sure if Alys is new or not...~

er....welcome?

Anyway, i don't think the part i quoted could be right. Sure, the DO has power over the grave, but it has to be limited power. Otherwise, why wouldn't he just hold all the heroes of the horn back? Some force has to be at work holding them out of his grasp, because obviously it would be conducive to his cause to hold all the big troublemakers back, or even reincarnate them into someone he could manipulate far more easily.

[epiph]

i think the do only has power over the grave if the people give him their souls. he is the father of lies after all...i had the distinct impression that whenever ishy tells rand, mat, and perrin that he has control over the grave that his is lying and stretching the truth.

also, while that orpheus idea is really cool, i think that the *finn are based on fairies...or at least, the irish, welsh, and english mythology concerning fairies...generally, when one runs across an old celtic myth with fairies in it, fairies don't like iron, can be charmed by music, and don't like fire. or at least some fairies. depends of the myths and the mythology. but that's my 2 cents, for now anyway.

[archely]

.....not like RJ couldn't do a myth crossover.... :dozey:

[epiph]

too true...and i thinking that in some vague back of my mind, tip of my tongue kind of way when i was giving my previous two cents :)

[Dragon Scepter]

hehehe ~digs up old thread~

I don't know if this would contribute to the thread or not, but I remember that when Rand was on the Spray with Bayle Domon he spotted a shining tower. Domon describes it and says it is commonly used as a landmark for navigation. This, I believe, is the Tower of Ghenjei, which would mean the tower is located near the Arinelle River about ten days north of Whitebridge. Also, Birgitte might know something of it because she appeared next to Perrin after Slayer led him to it, and told him what it was.

In one of the earlier books, Moiraine speculates: "That world is... folded... in strange ways.... It may be that that allows them to read the thread of a human life, read the various ways it may yet be woven into the Pattern." Could this be used in some way?

I'll post more later

[Rallan]

I'm with Epiph on this one. The Tower of Ghenjei will be used to get into (or at least out of) *finnland, because there's really no point mentioning it if it's not going to do anything. It's like that old saw about how if there's a gun on the mantlepiece in the first act, someone'll get shot with it in the third act, and if someone gets shot in the third act it's _because_ they showed us a gun in the first.



Rallan

[Sajhe]

I allwaya thought the tower of genji only eisted in the world of dreams. am i wrong?

[Rallan]

Waaaaaaaaay back in Eye of The World you see it's real-life counterpart when Mat and Rand are sailing downriver on Bayle Domon's boat. Although neither Bayle Domon or anyone else knows anything about it except that it's made of metal and doesn't have any doors or windows.




Rallan

[Dragon Scepter]

Originally posted by Rallan
Waaaaaaaaay back in Eye of The World you see it's real-life counterpart when Mat and Rand are sailing downriver on Bayle Domon's boat. Although neither Bayle Domon or anyone else knows anything about it except that it's made of metal and doesn't have any doors or windows.




Rallan

Uh... did I not just say that?
Originally posted by Dragon Scepter
hehehe ~digs up old thread~

I don't know if this would contribute to the thread or not, but I remember that when Rand was on the Spray with Bayle Domon he spotted a shining tower. Domon describes it and says it is commonly used as a landmark for navigation. This, I believe, is the Tower of Ghenjei, which would mean the tower is located near the Arinelle River about ten days north of Whitebridge. Also, Birgitte might know something of it because she appeared next to Perrin after Slayer led him to it, and told him what it was.

In one of the earlier books, Moiraine speculates: "That world is... folded... in strange ways.... It may be that that allows them to read the thread of a human life, read the various ways it may yet be woven into the Pattern." Could this be used in some way?

I'll post more later

[Ranion]

Did anyone ever think that maybe Thom will enter the doorway in tear and ask how to save moiraine? then be led to the ToG? or maybe escape Finnland and come out of the ToG? oh, oh one more. Or maybe it's like in harry potter where there room can only be found when you absolutely need it? I don't know where that will go but maybe Thom will pass it by and there will suddenly be a door and he'll be curious enough to explore it.

['Skis]

Courage to Strengthen: Could be anyone, my guess is Rand, just to complete the Taveren trio.
Fire to Blind: Mat, after he's learnt the secret of fireworks from Aludra, and works out that Bellfounders could be used as cannons
Music to Daze: Thom, cause he's just a champ and plays tripped-out music.
Iron to Bind: Perrin, with his awesome blacksmithing skill, effectively completes the "Fellowship of the *finns"!

They charge into Finnland, rescue Moir, kick ass, Mat has sex with someone (cause he's just a champion) and they leave, leaving a bunch of confused *finns lying in a daze. Oh, and Thom wishes for an electric guitar.
-Logain

[Llothlian]

arrr... i was just thinking the very same thing logain when i got to the top of page 3 :( but u beat me to it :( oh well...

[Endrin al'sohl]

courage to strengthen dosn't that mean it makes the finns strong because the rest of the poem describes what happens to the finns. Also way back in the thread someone asked what was in the letter Thom got. It was the names of the Aes sedi who genteled Owen and the one who ordered it done. So I can't wait to see Thom get his revenge.

[Llothlian]

Originally posted by Logain
Courage to Strengthen: ...
Fire to Blind: ...
Music to Daze: ...
Iron to Bind: ...

ok this does sound like the creation of some sort of weapon... maybe if all 4 are bought into the presence of the fin something great will happen :) (this has already been said, but not the weapon part so i thought id put in my penny piece)

[Byrn]

It's the weakness' of the 'Finns. Nothing more.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Logain
Courage to Strengthen: ...
Fire to Blind: ...
Music to Daze: ...
Iron to Bind: ...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Alys]

Why does everyone assume that a great number of people are going in to save Moiraine? Thom could just as well go in by himself, with information gathered from Olver, matches aquired from Mat..and some pretty interesting iron things picked up along the way to bind the *finn with. Also, it seems like it has to be a weapon made with iron, from the question about it the *finns pose everytime a person enters through a doorway. Bind may have a more metaphorical meaning...perhaps bound to Thom's will?

It'd be cool to see Thom in some solitary a**kicking action, anyhow. ;)