Rand's the creator

[Pope Trevor]

this is my ultimate and most favorite theory

Rand is the the human representation of the creator, Ishamael (Moridin) is human representation of the Dark One

it would take too long to explain all the details right now, so i'll start with a few points

Rand is the creator because.....

he is a representation of Jesus Christ, who is the human represenation of God, making Rand the human representation of the Creator

Ishamael is the dark one because......

Rand cannot fight the true dark one, because the dark one isn't a part of the same world. there is no way a Rand could fight him. since Ishamael is the most powerful forksaken, he is the obvious choice to be Rand's opponant

[Aragorn]

He's a pretty crappy representation of Christ.

[magatsu17]

People compare Rand to Christ it seem all the time, but all I can see that connect them is that there both proficied saiviors. But that's the only thing that's really similar, in every other faucet, look, personality, they are completely different. I don't think I would consider Rand a human representation of the creator, he just seem like a regular dude in a fucked up situation to me.

[Pope Trevor]

There are many things that point to Rand being a Christ-like figure. these are all the points i can think of now, but i belive that there are more:

1. Rand's last name, al'Thor. al means "son of", Thor is a norse God. So al'Thor would translate in "Son of God"

2. Wounds on his hands

3. Wound in his side, that will eventually kill him

4. When Rand puts on the Crown of Swords, it makes his head bleed, as the Crown of Thrones did to Christ.

5. The Dark ones name is Shai'tan. sounds kinda like Satan

6. He's the decendent of a queen, where Jesus was decendent of a king

7. In LOC (i think) Mazrim Taim says that one of the rumors about Rand is that he was "born of a women touched by no man"

8. In TSR (i think) when Nynaeve meets Masema, he recits to her the first lines of the Virgin Mary's prayer. he says something to the effect of: blessec art thou among women Nynaeve al'Meara, to be the mother of the Lord Dragon. Notice also how Meara sounds like Mary

[LaughingTurtle]

Don't know if this would fit but....

9) Both having disciples: Jesus with Paul, Matthew, John, etc. and Rand with his Asha'men.

10) Jesus resurrecting the dead (Lazrus), Rand's attempt at it in the Stone(even though he failed).


Now i'm just waiting for Rand to walk on water and it will be complete...

[QuirkyTemplate]

buuuuuut ...

Jesus had that cool 1960s - 70s beatknick thing goin on. Rand can't compare with that.

[magatsu17]

1. What does Norse mythology have to do with Jesus and Rand??

2.Those are wound's on rand's hands those are brands

3.Jesus was dead before he had the wound, Rand's lived with his for 8 books

4. So his head was bleeding, i don't think that's a big connection

5.Shi'Tan and satan, well they do sound alike

6.Actually I was just thinkin about this the other day, Christ isn't decendant from David cause his Father was God not, Joseph, and it give no connect to Mary.

7.I think that was book 6 actually, but i thought he was making a joke.

8.yeah I'll give you that one

9. I wouldn't call the Ashaman diciples

10.Rand failed where Christ succeeded


I just feel the need to be contrary,

but here's one connection you didn't think of

11. Jesus spoke of being a shepherd often, and Rand was a Sheperd.

[LaughingTurtle]

Magy...

2) it's the whole fact of Stigmata, not a difference between branding and gashes

3) no jesus wasn't dead...(or was he, have to go check...)

4)You forget the whole crown symbolism

9)What? the asha'men are akind to disciples, and Taim could easily be compared to Paul...

10)But they both tried (remember not that Rand's Christ, but a "Christ-like figure")

~~grabs big rubber chicken~~

Hey Quirky...

~~SMACK!~~

crazy hippy... :D :p

[QuirkyTemplate]

doh! Nobody respects the beatknicks! :P

And yes, Jesus was dead before the spear to the side.

And Jesus is a decendent of David. He often refers to himself as the "son of man". But if you wanna get all tech-no-kal, then I guess biologically he isn't.

I sleep now!

[ShadowReaver]

right but in religion there aren't technicallities it's all fluid and interpretive so yes in a way Jesus was the decendent of a King. at any rate i sincerely doubt that RJ would accidentally make all these connections. . . .writers DON'T make accidents like that. . .SO many books that you would never think do, have religious symbolism

1. What does Norse mythology have to do with Jesus and Rand??

it's the idea of Rand being the son of a God, not which God. . .it's symbolism.


2.Those are wound's on rand's hands those are brands

brands are wounds, a burn is most certainly an injury

3.Jesus was dead before he had the wound, Rand's lived with his for 8 books
Jesus also rose from the dead supposedly. . .but if you think about it in the sense that he was a historical figure not a religious one and follow scientific thought he wasn't dead. . .therefore the wound that would not stop bleeding was there in his life. but that's just being funly. . .the point is they both have mortal wounds in their sides that cannot be healed and won't stop bleeding.

4. So his head was bleeding, i don't think that's a big connection

that's a MASSIVE connection! it's the bloody crown of thorns! the only diff is RJ renamed it the crown of swords. . . .bah. . . you are too contrary

5.Shai'tan and satan, well they do sound alike

that's not an accident i'm sure

6.Actually I was just thinkin about this the other day, Christ isn't decendant from David cause his Father was God not, Joseph, and it give no connect to Mary.

first of all your syntax was horrible and made that statement confusing. . .second. . .if you are adopted by someone, even royalty, you are considered their child. biology aside you are their child.

7.I think that was book 6 actually, but i thought he was making a joke.

possibly, but that quote was certainly there for a reason.

8.yeah I'll give you that one

indeed

9. I wouldn't call the Ashaman diciples

what else would they be?

10.Rand failed where Christ succeeded

uhh. . .did i miss something? where was this?

I just feel the need to be contrary,

but here's one connection you didn't think of

11. Jesus spoke of being a shepherd often, and Rand was a Sheperd.

12. an interesting thing is the Trinity, "of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit" and then there is the trinity of a different sort seen in Rand, Mat and Perrin who are all needed for victory to be achieved.

[balefire]

Originally posted by magatsu17
.Shai'tan and satan, well they do sound alike

Look at the Trolloc tribe names. They all sound like something, such as devil, demon, golem, goblin, gremlin, djinn etc.

[magatsu17]

There is a connection don't get me wrong, but I think people make more of it than what it really is, but speaking of the whole resurection thing, Jesus did resurect a little girl from the dead, and that's who Rand was trying to resurect.


oohh and being a desendant is all about technicallity, even if you adoptive perants love you like there own son, your still aren't there decendants.

Crown of Swords, and Crown of Thorns??

ok so that's kind of similar, but they both meant very different things.


I'm sure Jesus was part of the insperation that Created Rand al'Thor in the first place, but they are so different as people that it makes these connections feel just superficail(sp) God do I ever suck at spelling.

[JoJo]

the bible and religious mythology in general are major influences of all literature, so the connections between the two are very rarely circumstantial, and most often intentional because the religious stories are ones that are familiar to a lot of people, so parallels with them make a storyteller's job that much easier.

[Pope Trevor]

At the begginning of this thread, i stated that Rand is the Creator, and Ishamael the Dark One.

Since it is accepted by most that Rand is Christ, I shall submit the rest of my theory for your comments.....

In Christanity, the Holy Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) are considered to be the same. therefore, Jesus (the Son) is considered to be god.

In WOT, the Creator is obviously God. If Rand is Jesus, then he is really the human representation of the Creator.

It doesn't seem logical that Rand would fight the 'real' Dark One in the last battle, because he is not really a part of the same world as Rand is.

So, it stands to reason that Rand would fight one of the Forsaken, more than likely Ishamael, because he is the most powerful.

Ishamael is the Dark One because...

According to John Milton's 'Paradise Lost', there is an Infernal Triangle, to counter the Holy Trinity. This is made up of Satan, Sin, and Death.

Obviously Shat'tan is Satan.

Ishamael's 'back to life' name is Moridin, which means Death.

Since he is part of the infernal Triangle, he is a human representation of Satan, or in this case the Dark One.

On top of that, Lanfear is Sin. Lanfear let the Dark One out of his prision, back in the Age of Legends.

In 'Paradise Lost', Sin lets Satan out of Hell and into the world.

[QuirkyTemplate]

In 'Paradise Lost', Sin lets Satan out of Hell and into the world.

I dont mean to get all tek no kal but I'm pretty sure that Satan was already free before Sin entered the world. Not that it matters.

[Pope Trevor]

Sin does let Satan out of Hell

After the battle for heaven, Satan is cast into Hell, and Sin is set to guard the gates of Hell. she then lets Satan out

[QuirkyTemplate]

Yeah ... I was talking 'bout how it actually did happen. Sin entered the world when Adam & Eve munched on that apple from how I understood it. I never did take Paradise Lost as a serious biblical refrence.

But you're probably only talking about Paradise Lost here so I guess you're right.

[magatsu17]

It's a cool theory, but so much of the items are pulled together for different stuff, from Norse mythology to Paradise Lost. Either way, I think Rand will fight the Dark one in fighting his represetitive. Morridin, or maybe Padan Fain. He seem more like he could be a DO representitive than any one.

[ShadowReaver]

no i think Fain represents something else. . .perhaps the evils of man, but he is himself a much weaker, but very different evil compared to the Dark One. I mean Fain strikes Rand in the same spot as Ishamael, and the two words fight eachother because they are both evil, but they are different evils.
I think one thing we may want to consider in the whole scheme of things is the connection between asian culture and WoT. . . .the very symbol of the Aes Sedai (from the age of legends) is a rip off of Yin Yang. . .and i think that RJ incorporated some of the Chinese ideas of balance. . . .hence the Creator and the Dark One are eternally in struggle but neither ever really wins over the other. Also there are 13 main "good guys" and 13 forsaken to begin with. . . and several of both are lost and new ones are brought up. . . . .those forsaken killed with balefire are replaced by characters like Padan Fain etc., and the main characters lost, like Moiraine, are replaced by lesser main characters like Birgitte.

[balefire]

Originally posted by ShadowReaver
the Creator and the Dark One are eternally in struggle but neither ever really wins over the other.

I think this has to do with the idea that good & evil are equal & opposite forces, so neither is more powerful than the other.

Originally posted by ShadowReaver
I think one thing we may want to consider in the whole scheme of things is the connection between asian culture and WoT

Also consider the reincarnation idea.

Originally posted by ShadowReaver
the very symbol of the Aes Sedai (from the age of legends) is a rip off of Yin Yang

You know, if you look at the symbol, you'll notice that where the white part is thickest, the black part is thinnest & vice versa. This represents the fact that when yang is strongest yin is weakest & vice versa. And in the yin-yang there are 2 dots inside, which means that there is yang in yin & vice versa ie. there's a man in every woman & vice versa. Anyone care to expand on the implications of that?

[flyingdutchman]

~starts looking for his vagina~

I like this idea!
hemafrodites rule!

[QuirkyTemplate]

Where did that come from?!

[flyingdutchman]

As you might have guessed from my presence on this forum, I am slightly disturbed.:D

who am I kidding, I'm a fruitcake!

[Ulk]

i've come into this kind of late, but whatever.

couple of points: in the bible if you want to, it traces Jesus' lineage back to David through both Joseph and Mary. Joseph is so that Jesus can be called the King, and Mary is the biological one. i'm pretty sure i'm right, and if i'm not someone who knows a lot about the bible can smite me. secondly, i dont agree with the ashaman being disciples, cos they really follow Taim, not Rand.

[magatsu17]

~~pulls out his sword to smite~~

The bible only give the Lineage to Joseph, In the book of Mathew, and the book of Luke, the both give Jesus' Lineage, but they both also go from Joeseph, not Mary. If there is another I don't know about somebody can tell me. But also in the prophecies about Jesus they say he'll come from the same tribe as David, The tribe of Judah.

But I'm almost positive it doesn't give Mary's Lineage.

[Ulk]

yeah well i'm almost positive it does! i'll prove it when i get the time

[Moridin]

I don't want to get in a religious battle or anything, but my religion believes that the father the son and the holy ghost are 3 seperate beings. but those things aside, Moridin is death but that doesn't mean that he is the great lord. is there a better name for the nae'blis than death...would a young boy just learning how to channel be able to kill the great lord of the dark. even if he was "reborn" in a different body. would he be able to make himself be reborn if he was dead. what a better name for the nae'blis than death.

[Judas]

actualy....there are two factions (sorry i can't spell) in the ashaman, and i wouldn't quite catogorize christ deciples as people prone to go insane. (that's just me though). But i must say that yes, i do agree that christ role and rands role are very similar, and i can even see rand and ismale(sorry again for the bad spelling) being advocates and representing their respective...whatever, you know what i mean. so ummm, yeah!