Who let Padan Fain out?

[Yudi]

I am knew to this board, so first I would just like to say hello. I do not know if this has been disscussed before so, if it has been, I appologize.
As far as I know, everyone is still trying to figure out who let Fain out of the prison cell in The Great Hunt. I think it was Slayer. We know now that he has the ability to step out of the world of dreams and into the real world. Also, Fain recognized the person who let him out, and was surprised that that person was a darkfriend. I think he just mistook Slayer for Lan, as did Perrin when he first saw him in Book Four. Lastly, Luc and Isam are mentioned in the message that was left on the wall of the cell. I have also always wondered why Mat and Egwene were not killed. I never bought the fact that Fain wanted them alive for some reason - no logical motive - and trolics or a Fade would not have left them so. I also never was convinced that either one of the two gaurds did it. Slayer, on the other hand, simply carries out the missions he is instructed to do (ie, when killing the Grey Man in the White Tower, he did not kill any Aes Sedai, even though, as a darkfriend, they were his enemies).
Anyways, that's it. Thoughts?

[GWINNA]

Um... Ingtar practicly admits to doing it.

[Berk]

Ingtar says nothing of the sort. He admits to being a darkfriend and to letting someone into Fal Dara, that person (probably a grey man) who shot the arrow at Rand and missed. This is definitely not the same person as the one who let Padan Fain out of prison and there is no evidence to suggest that it was Ingtar himself who was the one.

However, Padan Fain WOULD be surprised if it was Ingtar and he WOULD recognize him so the concept has merit in my eyes. I just havent seen the proof yet.

David Berkowitz

[QuirkyTemplate]

I kinda always thought it was Lan. I mean -- the guys obviously hiding *something* right?

[GWINNA]

Originally posted by Berk
Ingtar says nothing of the sort. He admits to being a darkfriend and to letting someone into Fal Dara, that person (probably a grey man) who shot the arrow at Rand and missed. This is definitely not the same person as the one who let Padan Fain out of prison and there is no evidence to suggest that it was Ingtar himself who was the one.

However, Padan Fain WOULD be surprised if it was Ingtar and he WOULD recognize him so the concept has merit in my eyes. I just havent seen the proof yet.

David Berkowitz
He also kills that some people and facilitates in the escape in many ways, thats why I said "practicaly" its hinted at alot.

[balefire]

Originally posted by QuirkyTemplate
I kinda always thought it was Lan. I mean -- the guys obviously hiding *something* right?

I really can't see how Lan could be a Darkfriend, given everything we've seen of him so far.

[magatsu17]

Lan being a dark friend is almost an impossibility, there is no way he could have been in the series for so long and there not any thing atleast be hinted that he was. No I thought it was Landrin who let Fain out of the cell.

[Berk]

Although Liandrin may have been the one (after all, the expression "there is alot more to be done" is used by both her and Padan Faih), I am not sure where Padan would recognize her from. He was not at the Darkfriend social because he was locked up in the cell.

None of these possibilities answer the questions:

Why were Mat and Egwene found unconcious near the cell and not dead?

Padan Fain was still locked up when the rescuer came and Mat and Egwene hadn't arrived yet. So Mat and Egwene had to have arrived at the cell itself before they realized something was not right. So the guards who were killed outside must have been killed after Mat and Egwene showed up. Why? IF the escape was in progress, what advantage is there to let them live for a bit longer? Kill them to ease the escape.

Why does Mat have no recollection of all of what happened? Egwene either? A possible explanation is that Liandrin (if it was her) used compulsion on them to forget the escape. But again, why not kill them?

[LaughingTurtle]

She was even there?? sorry, haven't read the hunt in a while

[Berk]

Liandrin was one of the ones who came to escort Moiraine to the Amyrlin Seat.

She was the one who first found Rand scraping the Fain directive off the wall in the prison.

She was the one who forced Lord Agelmars sister to help her hunt down the three boys.

She was also the one who left the Amyrlins party on the way back to Tar Valon soon after Moiraine and Verin did.

Also, she was at the darkfriend social.

[LaughingTurtle]

thx for the refresh, i just recently (about 20min ago) finished Antrax the newest book by Terry Brooks, and well, lets just say that things have merged / blurred / totally been messed up in my memory of the books.

What? Rand isn't an elf, or was he?? hmmmm...

[Berk]

Taht just means its time to reread the series. :)

[Yudi]

Regarding Ingtar, I don't think so. If I remember correctly, Mat and Egwene are found in the cell right after all the fighting went on, and Rand ran there to see if they were ok. As - and here I agree with Berk - the gaurds could not have been dead yet when they got there, that means the person who let Fain out could not have been Ingtar. He was saving Rand's but from a Fade.
Liandrin is a much better answer, but why would Fain recognize her? They could have met sometime in the past, but, since we were not given that info, I don't think RJ would have put it in then.
Of course, another possibility is Moraine. She is also unaccounted for at the time. Keep in mind that I am not saying that she is a darkfriend. If that turns out to be true, that is the day I stop reading the series. (and, by the way, same for Lan "the man"). However, we do know that Moraine has her own agenda - just like Verin and Cadsuine. If, perhaps, she felt that the only way to edge Rand on his course of destiny would be to let Fain out, would she not do it? I don't know.
If she is the one, then that explains why Mat and Egwene were not harmed. She could also have used the power to make them forget or, more likely, used it to stop Fain from killing them. As for the gaurds, I don't know. It was just a thought.

[QuirkyTemplate]

Yeah, I'm still serious about Lan being a Darkfriend guys. I mean, sure he talks 'bout killin the shadown an' whatnot, but seriously, a man can't be *that* stoney and not be hiding something.

Bet that Rands a Darkfriend too. What with him being all stoney too.

Mat ... he's a Darkfriend. Waaay too cool not to have some type of dark half goin' on.

Nynavae(sp?) ... she tried to be a Darkfriend, but they kicked her out case she got on everyone's nerves.

The Creator ... sooooo a Darkfriend. Man, he's just messin with Perrin, who is the only character who actually *isn't* a Darkfriend (partly because he was too slow-witted to catch on to the Darkfriend craze).

Verdict? Perrin tears his way through 1 billion people/shadowspawn and tries to rescue Faile(sp?), only to realize that he already smote her back a few chapters ago.

[magatsu17]

Hey QT, I didn't know you were a White Cloak. Do you serve with Galad??



now seriously, If Mat and Egwene died there who would be leading the band of the Red hand, and who would be Amyrlin Seat. Maybe Mat's Tavern Luck saved them. I mean he was lucky in book 2. It started right when he got the Dagger. i just wish we knew how it relates to the dagger.

[balefire]

Originally posted by Berk
He was not at the Darkfriend social because he was locked up in the cell.

Besides, he isn't a normal Darkfriend, if you recall what Moiraine said about him. There wouldn't be any need for him to join the social gathering at Shayol Ghul. He meets the Dark One directly, in dreams or in the Pit.

Originally posted by Berk
Why were Mat and Egwene found unconcious near the cell and not dead?

Why does Mat have no recollection of all of what happened? Egwene either? A possible explanation is that Liandrin (if it was her) used compulsion on them to forget the escape. But again, why not kill them?

I don't know the answers here, but I don't think Liandrin's trick qualifies as Compulsion. It can only make people more susceptible to the things she says, that's all. She can't do the same things that any consummate user of Compulsion can, such as erasing memories or mind-control. Recall how she tried to use it on Moghedien & she said "You thought you had learned something about Compulsion."

[GWINNA]

Had to be that diry whore Else Grinwald!

[balefire]

Originally posted by Yudi
Of course, another possibility is Moraine. She is also unaccounted for at the time. Keep in mind that I am not saying that she is a darkfriend. If that turns out to be true, that is the day I stop reading the series. (and, by the way, same for Lan "the man"). However, we do know that Moraine has her own agenda - just like Verin and Cadsuine. If, perhaps, she felt that the only way to edge Rand on his course of destiny would be to let Fain out, would she not do it? I don't know.
If she is the one, then that explains why Mat and Egwene were not harmed. She could also have used the power to make them forget or, more likely, used it to stop Fain from killing them. As for the gaurds, I don't know. It was just a thought.

I don't think so, given Moiraine's distaste for Fain. She'll destroy him once she gets whatever she can out of him. Recall that her questioning of Fain wasn't complete because they were running out of time, & I think she was planning that, after she recovered from the ordeal at the Eye, she would pay him another visit until she learned everything about Fain's connection to the Shadow. The last thing she'll do is let Fain go off. We know she'll do anything to make sure Rand wins, even if it means sacrificing herself (:(sob, sob...I want her back!!!). Verin is the most suspicious. Light alone knows what she's really up to.

Notice that Moiraine has a trick similar to Compulsion, & Verin & Liandrin's trick. Otherwise how did she manage to pry so much info out of Fain? "He could not lie to me, although he hid much." I don't think her technique is as sophisticated as Verin's secret recipe, though. I think it's midway between Verin's 5 Power Combo & Liandrin's Pseudo-Compulsion Pathetique.

[balefire]

Originally posted by QuirkyTemplate
Yeah, I'm still serious about Lan being a Darkfriend guys. I mean, sure he talks 'bout killin the shadown an' whatnot, but seriously, a man can't be *that* stoney and not be hiding something.

Bet that Rands a Darkfriend too. What with him being all stoney too.

Mat ... he's a Darkfriend. Waaay too cool not to have some type of dark half goin' on.

Nynavae(sp?) ... she tried to be a Darkfriend, but they kicked her out case she got on everyone's nerves.

The Creator ... sooooo a Darkfriend. Man, he's just messin with Perrin, who is the only character who actually *isn't* a Darkfriend (partly because he was too slow-witted to catch on to the Darkfriend craze).

Verdict? Perrin tears his way through 1 billion people/shadowspawn and tries to rescue Faile(sp?), only to realize that he already smote her back a few chapters ago.

Get real, QuirkyTemplate :) And if you don't quit the Whitecloak Cult now, I'll have you balefired. I hate Whitecloaks! My opinion of Galad went down into the Pit when he joined those Light-blasted bigots.

[GWINNA]

Originally posted by balefire


Get real, QuirkyTemplate :) And if you don't quit the Whitecloak Cult now, I'll have you balefired. I hate Whitecloaks! My opinion of Galad went down into the Pit when he joined those Light-blasted bigots.
Whitecloaks = wannabe channelers!
It's a huge complex with all the fuckers, can't channel(knowingly) so the decide to all be a bunch of dicks!

[QuirkyTemplate]

Get real, QuirkyTemplate And if you don't quit the Whitecloak Cult now, I'll have you balefired. I hate Whitecloaks! My opinion of Galad went down into the Pit when he joined those Light-blasted bigots.

... Maybe *your're* a Darkfriend!

Get 'em boyz!

[balefire]

Originally posted by QuirkyTemplate
... Maybe *your're* a Darkfriend!

Get 'em boyz!

Typical of Whitecloaks. They always think everyone except them is a Darkfriend.

[Yudi]

I don't know if Moraine did it or not - remmeber that my original theory was that it was Slayer. However...
When Moraine said that she wanted to interview Fain more, that was at the end of Book One. She has had time since this was weeks later. Second, Moraine is in the cell when Rand gets there, pretty fast I think. Third, why should we be sure that Moraine would kill Fain before using him? Recall that she knew exactly who Asmodean was, yet still allowed him to hang around because Rand needed him. There was no way for her to know exactly what his relationship with Rand was and how little power he had. Also, she might have been letting Fain go for another reason. If she felt that it was not time yet for any sister but the Amyrlin to know who Rand was, she might not have wanted Liandrin or anyone else to interview him.

[Berk]

Who let Padan out of prison was one of my biggest questions in the series, so much so that when RJ came to Chicago to sign books after Winters Heart, THAT was the question I asked him.

His response was the usual RAFO.

This indicated to me that it was not a trivial issue like it would have been had it been Ingtar or Liandrin.

1) Padan Fain knew the rescuer.
2) Padan Fain was surprised by his rescuer.
3) Moirainne was one of the first ones down in the dungeon.

4) When Ingtar found out that Padan Fain was taking the horn south and not north, he said "She was right, then, the Amyrlin Seat. A great and wise woman..." I had always wondered how the Amyrlin knew Padan would head south and not toward the blight. The Amyrlin knows everything Moiraine tells her, so it seems logical that it was really Moiraine who knew Padan would head south. If Moiraine knew Padan would head south and she wanted Rand to head south as well...all she needs is a reason for Rand to go. Padan Fain could be that reason.

[Yudi]

So much for my first theory, I like my second one better. I am becoming more an dmore convinced that Moiraine let Fain out. Everything I said above - and Berk's point (re Amyrlin) as well - points to her.

[QuirkyTemplate]

Typical of Whitecloaks. They always think everyone except them is a Darkfriend.

... Maybe *I'm* a darkfriend?

Get 'em boyz!




























doh!

[balefire]

Originally posted by QuirkyTemplate
... Maybe *I'm* a darkfriend?

Get 'em boyz!

doh!

Then you really deserve this...
~channels lightning at QuirkyTemplate ~
Aarg! You've got a Power-negating ter'angreal!
~weaves a gateway & escapes~

[balefire]

Originally posted by Yudi
I don't know if Moraine did it or not - remmeber that my original theory was that it was Slayer. However...
When Moraine said that she wanted to interview Fain more, that was at the end of Book One. She has had time since this was weeks later. Second, Moraine is in the cell when Rand gets there, pretty fast I think. Third, why should we be sure that Moraine would kill Fain before using him? Recall that she knew exactly who Asmodean was, yet still allowed him to hang around because Rand needed him. There was no way for her to know exactly what his relationship with Rand was and how little power he had. Also, she might have been letting Fain go for another reason. If she felt that it was not time yet for any sister but the Amyrlin to know who Rand was, she might not have wanted Liandrin or anyone else to interview him.

Actually I said that Moiraine might kill him after she's gotten everything she needs to know out of him. He's the worst type of Darkfriend possible (not counting channelers) so he should be disposed of as soon as possible, just so he'll stop pestering the 3 ta'veren. I'm sure Moiraine thought of all this too. Maybe you're right, Moiraine let him off as she didn't want any other sister to find out too much from Fain. Also, she used her Compulsion-like technique on him, & she could be found out & stilled; the penalty for Compulsion or anything similar is stilling. Notice the Aes Sedai double standard: They can do a similar thing to their Warders, & that's permitted. Getting back to the main question, why did she let Fain escape with the Horn? Recall that she warded her room, so no one could have stolen the Horn. The only possibility is that she gave him the Horn & released him, & probably channeled to make Mat and Egwene forget she was there.

[Yudi]

I forgot about the Horn. That's right, if it was not Moiraine, how did Fain get the horn?
Also, we have to ask ourselves who wrote the message on the wall of the cell? Now I am convinved that it was not Fain. He does not strike me as someone who cares at all about any other darkfriends or anything for that matter - just killing Rand.
Now Moiraine is a possibility. First, we know she visited the two retired sisters in Book Two to pour over old manuscripts. Who says that was her first time there? She could have come across something interesting and purposely put it on the wall to either confuse the other sisters or Rand or anybody. Even is she had never been there before, one who spent twenty years searching for the dragon reborn would probably have poured over every prophecy and anything associated with it.
The Trollic script could have easily been faked.
The only question that still remains is who killed the gaurds and why was one inmate crazy? Fain could have easily killed them, but what was Moiraine doing at the time? She had to still be there to protect Mat and Egwene.

[Berk]

At an RJ signing I asked him if Lanfear was the one who let loose Padan Fain. My reason for asking was:

In the guide, it says Lanfear uses the World of Dreams to make people kill themselves and go insane. The two others in cells did just that, go insane, and kill themselves.

RJ's answer:

Lanfear didn't do that. Fain himself did it.

[magatsu17]

I think it could be Isam/Luc, The dark prophecy was written there on the wall, and it talked about Luc and Isam. So it could very well have been them who let Padan Fain out.

[LaughingTurtle]

But what if Berk says is true, then that would mean RJ lied....not very likely.

[QuirkyTemplate]

RJ all but admited that he lies to you fellas. Besides, Fain driving the other two guys crazy doesn't mean RJ is lying. It has nothing to do with how Fain escaped either. RJ is an Aes Sedi!(sp)

[magatsu17]

We all know that Padan Fain has some stange powers, and we don't know what all he can do, but we do know he makes Mydraal in to his bitches. I still think he'l end up being the final person rand fight's , probly even after the last battle. He's been around for all 9 books, none of the villians in the series can say that except for him.

[Yudi]

Not that we are grading villians here, but you can't hold it against someone for not surviving all 9 books if they did not even first appear until book 3 or 4. Also, would you consider Dain Bornhold a villian? He has survived all 9 books as well. What about Elaida? Alviarin has also hung around, but granted that she was not in book one.

[QuirkyTemplate]

Only cool villian to be around 9 books. Happy?

[LaughingTurtle]

NO!!!!!!!

We're never happy, esp. with you Quirky! In fact, sometimes i'm down right disgusted with you, jeez man, what's wrong with you...




BUWAHAHAHAA, ;) ;) ;) j/k man, you know, you can't please everyone!! -- Brings to mind Lena's sig....ahew, "It is true that you may fool all of the people some of the time;you can even fool some of the people all of the time; but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time." -- Abraham Lincoln

[Berk]

Personally my favorite villian is Narg.

Too bad he died. :(

He was smart.

My second favorite villain is Faile.

[QuirkyTemplate]

LT you crazy mofo! :P

Narf?! He was way cool! I'd team up with him over a Fade anyday of the week!


But then you got that one Fade ... Shadar Haman(sp?). He's one hardcase.

Bah! Narf could take 'em!

[magatsu17]

Narg?? who the fuck is Narg, wait isnt' he the Tolloc who tried to talk to Rand in book one, naw Narg wasn't all that cool.

[GWINNA]

Originally posted by Berk
Personally my favorite villian is Narg.

Too bad he died. :(

He was smart.

My second favorite villain is Faile.
LEAVE FAILE ALONE!

[LaughingTurtle]

LT you crazy mofo! :P
Why yes, yes i am, thank you for noticing....;) :p

And yes Shadar Harun(sp) is dah man, er...Myddraal. Not only a fade, but a kick ass one at that! (more so than a normal fade)

CRAP!!!!

I think Gwinnia's gotten into my head again, cause i agree with him....i know she's not the best, but cut Faile some slack.

GET OUTTA MY HEAD, YOU CRAZY JACKALOPE!!!!

[GWINNA]

no, I am here forever, mine to command!

[logan]

It was Ingtar RJ even said that it was him. somewhere on dragonmount

[Byrn]

You do realize this thread was inactive for three years?

[Belle]

I agree, it was Ingtar. While Rand and the rest of the gang including Ingtar are running from the Seachan armies, they back into an alley where Ingtar confesses and comes into the light once more.

[Dj_ez]

Yes he does...... Old threads brought back into the light, wicked

[Dragon Lord]

Yeah, I'm still serious about Lan being a Darkfriend guys. I mean, sure he talks 'bout killin the shadown an' whatnot, but seriously, a man can't be *that* stoney and not be hiding something.

Bet that Rands a Darkfriend too. What with him being all stoney too.

Mat ... he's a Darkfriend. Waaay too cool not to have some type of dark half goin' on.

Nynavae(sp?) ... she tried to be a Darkfriend, but they kicked her out case she got on everyone's nerves.

I know this is old but it got me so pissed i had to respond. okay you'll all "stoney means evil" well i'll tell ya you had to be "STONED" when you wrote this what do you do? read a couple pages of each book?

[aan'allein]

Pretty sure he was joking... you'd have to be an idiot to say the main character and only hope for the world's salvation is a darkfriend.

It was obviously Ingtar who freed Padan Fain. He was a Darkfriend, and there was no one else there that we are certain was a Darkfriend, right? And who else would have any motivation. Unless it just happened to be your run-of-the-mill Myrdraal, ya know. :dozey:

[4th Dimension]

Ingar, RJ sai so, case closed.

And how could you possibly think that that guy was talking serious?
and you do understand that this was dead allmoust for an year.

['Skis]

I know this is old but it got me so pissed i had to respond. okay you'll all "stoney means evil" well i'll tell ya you had to be "STONED" when you wrote this what do you do? read a couple pages of each book?

Hahah, shut up moron. :type:

[Rallan]

Actually Ingtar wasn't the only one there. Liandrin, the first AS to be outed as Black Ajah, conveniently happened to be there at the time. Even though Ingtar confesses to being the one who made sure intruders could get into the castle, he also claims not to have known just how bad things were going to be. There's every chance that Liandrin could've been the darkfriend coordinating efforts on the ground, since she'd already tipped her hand by using lying her ass off to a Shieneran noblewoman until the poor broad was scared enough to be susceptible to Compulsion-like trick, all so that she could organise a search to try and bring Rand to Liandrin.

And meanwhile, even if Liandrin had nothing to do with the massacre that night, knowing about Ingtar doesn't make it case closed. Who gave Ingtar the order? Was it Ishamael or the Dark One acting directly? Was it Slayer, since the "dark prophesy" on the prison wall was the first mention of him? Was it Lanfear, since she was also mentioned in the prophesy and she just happened to make regular appearances during the hunt for Fain? Was it just some Darkfriend Benevolent Society who make a point of springing important comrades?

And it all raises an even bigger question: why did the dark prophesy mention Toman Head, and why did Fain go there? We know from his actions early in the chase that he no longer considered himself the Dark One's servant (he repeatedly killed dissenters who tried to turn the party northwards towards the Blight, because he had no intentions of going there). We know that whoever masterminded his rescue was still loyal to the cause (how else would they have a buttload of trollocs and myrddraal and be able to get instructions to Ingtar?). We also know that whoever wrote the Dark Prophesy can't have been Padan Fain, since Fain couldn't have known about Lanfear's release, or the significance of Luc/Isam.

And yet somehow Fain still ends up deciding to go to Toman Head. And not by accident either, he mentions it before he's freed and makes a point of having Barthanes pass it on to Rand and co. in Cairhien. Now we know that the forces of Darkness definitely had a plot involving the Seanchan at Toman head thanks to various sources:
- Jaichim "Bors" Carridin is stirring things up in the area with the express approval of Baalzamon
- Liandrin tries to deliver the girls over to the High Lady Suroth there because it's somehow vitally important that Egwene and Nynaeve are shipped, alive, to the Seanchan homeland
- Ishamael himself turns up to try and kick Rand's ass
- whoever writes the Dark Prophecy flat out TELLS us that Toman Head is important.

Now why would Fain choose there of all the places in the world to go? He's got no friends there. He knows that the Dark One has plans there, and is probably smart enough to know he'll be a wanted man when the DO figures out Fain's betrayal (and let's not beat around the bush, the Dark One will know _long_ in advance, since Fain started openly defying his superiors the moment he was free). He gets really pissy at the thought of anyone except himself killing Rand, so he wouldn't knowingly be part of a plan to lure al'Thor into Ishamael's clutches. Basically he's got some very good reasons NOT to go to Toman Head, but he decides to go there anyway? What gives?

[4th Dimension]

Well there was a realy large theory on WoTmania cocerning who let Fain out. It's a bit untrue but might give you an idea from diferent perspective. It has four parts and the las part is Who let Fain out but to understand it you should read other parts.
I assume some of you allready read this:
http://www.wotmania.com/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=1146&Category=Forsaken
http://www.wotmania.com/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=1147&Category=Forsaken
http://www.wotmania.com/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=1148&Category=Forsaken
http://www.wotmania.com/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=1149&Category=Forsaken
http://www.wotmania.com/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=1150&Category=Forsaken

[Calian]

I dont think it was Lan or Ingtar it had to have been Egwene. That would explain why she and Mat were found alive and not killed, Fain did it as a favor and let her live. Then he went outside and killed the gaurds, who were still alive. Then her and Mat were found without any recollection of what happened. This all makes sense because the gaurds would let her in and he would be surprised it was her. so what do you guys think.

[Shintaro]

Aside from the fact you are obviously wrong; you are reviving a thread that has been dead about 7/8 months. Let it rest.