General book discussion. [Archive]

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Elin

3rd June 2001, 08:57

Hi all,
 
 Just finished my exams for this semester, so I can finally lose myself in some fiction books again... I love the feeling of being able to read all night and get up at twelve. : )
 
 Right now I'm reading "Cryptonomicon" by Neal Stephenson, have you read it? It intertwines two stories: one set during WW2, where people crack the Germans' codes and then try to conceal the fact that they cracked them, and one where modern-day hackers try to make a data haven in South-East Asia. I'm totally caught up in it... it's exciting and very amusing. It constantly veers off into bizarre side stories, and can spend pages discussing number theory or how a church organ is constructed. The book has a total lack of leading female characters though - most people in the book are socially incompetent nerds who are mainly interested in math and sex (particularly one hilarious guy called Lawrence Waterhouse). Ah well, being a math nerd myself, I guess I can appreciate parts of this. My favorite character in the book is probably Alan Turing, it's a pity there isn't more about him - I guess it's because he's an actual historical character.
 
 I'm also reading Naomi Klein's "No Logo" atm - interesting stuff.
 
 Ok, so tell me what interesting books you've been reading...

Jean

3rd June 2001, 16:51

I've been trying to catch up on reading forever! I'm reading a bunch of fantasy books right now, one by Elizabeth Haydon called Rhapsody, then I want to re-read The Lord of the Rings, it's been sooo long since I picked those books up. I had to dig through boxes to find them, and then I couldn't find The Return of the Kind. I think I might have let someone borrow it. <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_frown.gif"> I don't think I'll find it. THEN I plan on reading George R.R. Martin, I think it would be neat to have some stuff on the site about him. <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

Harun

4th June 2001, 23:26

I read George R.R. Martin's series and I think it kicks some serious ass. Currently, though, I'm reliving my childhood and I'm rereading Lloyd Alexander's Prydain Chronicles. I'm pleased to note that those books still hold up in quality from the time I first read them, around a dozen years ago.

Elin

6th June 2001, 09:49

Mmm... I like GRRM too, but not (yet) enough to buy them in hardcover. So I'm still waiting for "A Storm of Swords" to be out in paperback.
 
 Yeah, I like re-reading books that I read when I was younger. It's surprising how many fantasy classics for children are still good to read when you're older - like Susan Cooper, Lloyd Alexander, C S Lewis, etc.

Jean

6th June 2001, 11:11

I love C.S. Lewis! The Chronicles of Narnia was the first fantasy series I'd ever read, and I was so proud that I'd gotten through all the books. LOL!

Harun

6th June 2001, 11:47

Now, how 'bout a quick comparison between GRRM and Terry Goodkind. Both of them have a lot of sex and violence in their books, but with Goodkind, the sex and violence seems to be more gratuitous. It seems to fit into GRRM's world a lot better.

Randal

13th June 2001, 22:54

REVIEW: "The Redemption of Althalus" by David Eddings.
 
 Ahem. I'll try to be diplomatic.
 
 I liked the characters in the Belgariad. It was OK to see them again in the Malloreon. It was not OK to see them again (with different names) in the Elenium. It was definitely not OK to see them in the same exact story yet again in the Tamuli.
 
 I think Eddings got the hint and tried to disguise them a little better in "Redemption". It didn't work. Althalus is funny, the goddess Dweia (who doubles as Emmy the Cat) has her moments, the kid Gher isn't too bad, but everybody else is a one-dimensional re-run of characters from the earlier series.
 
 The book had its moments, but not many of them. The plot is confused and offers very little dramatic tension. Each scene seems to be a set-up for a one-liner by one of the characters.
 
 Don't buy it in hardback. Don't even buy it new in paperback if you can borrow a copy. For hardcore Eddings fans only.
 
 Rating: 4 out of 10.
 
 Randal
 
 <);^)~

Jacob

17th June 2001, 18:21

Man, you've got WAY too much time to spare and too much money to spend if you actually gave the Edding another chance, Randal!
 
 I have to admit, the cover (and plot) looked A BIT interesting but...fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me!
 
 The last book that I read myself was a Storm of Swords. I thought it was really good, but there was a feeling of tendancy's towards making this series much longer than intended to squise out a few extra millions. Sound familiar? Then again, might just be similar to what I do when I can't figure out how to continue something...I just keep talking until I figgure something out <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> [ This Message was edited by: Jacob on 2001-06-18 00:24 ]

Harun

17th June 2001, 22:14

*seconds Randal on his assessment of the latest Eddings book*
 
 Though I'm gonna disagree with you there, Jacob, about Storm of Swords. I think that that series has a fairly compact feel, at least relative to WoT. But then, the Bible and the Talmud all together seem compact compared to WoT.

Randal

18th June 2001, 23:33

Jacob, time is one thing I have VERY little of these days...
 
 But I guess I was just hoping Eddings had done something new and different. Sadly, he doesn't seem capable of that any more. Too bad, because there are some things I like about his writing.
 
 I've been reading a lot of P.G. Wodehouse lately. Great stuff! Jeeves and Wooster are the best!
 
 <);^)~

Randal

18th June 2001, 23:46

Oh, and I do recommend John Marco's recent trilogy: The Jackal of Nar, The Grand Design, and The Saints of the Sword. If you like Jordan you'll like John Marco. Trust me.
 
 <);^)~

nato

19th June 2001, 01:39

I keep hearing cryptonomicon is good. But I've been sorta warry about reading stephenson. He seems too cyberpunky for my tastes. But I dunno. Maybe I'll read cryptonomicon. I'm not so sure about snow crash.
 Wodehouse is really good. Keeley gave me a Wodehouse for a present, once. But it was infinitely funnier when she was reading it to me. :-)
 I've taken a break from scifi/fantasy. I have a bunch of books I wanna read this summer. I just finished Guns, Germs, and Steel, and I'm about to start Lolita. Guns, Germs, and Steel was quite fascinating. I'm pretty sure Elin reccommended it to me. So, yeah. I have nothing of value to say, I admit it.

Jacob

19th June 2001, 19:49

Eddings had ONE good idea for a world, for a group of characters. I don't hate his works exactly. Frankly, had I only read one of his/their series and not even seen the others, I might have liked their writing...and wished for more. But Eddings only ever succeded in creating one world and one set of charecters, with one plot repeated over and over. I still think that the "kitchen scene" starting out belgariand is one of the best in fantasy.
 
 I've only read one Jeeves and Wooster book. I got it from my Head Teacher back at the end of the second semester in SHS for "...my valueble contributions...". So much for Bad Boy Jacob <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> They used to show Jeeves and Wooster on TV here though and it is very very funny. Pratchet is funny too (back to "sorto fantasy") Quite intelligent with alot more in it than just great humour.

Randal

20th June 2001, 21:38

The Jeeves and Wooster TV series with Stephen Fry and Hugh Laurie is the funniest thing I've ever seen on television. I have them on DVD and watch them over and over again without getting tired of them. The books are just as funny.
 
 Eddings is now on my permanent "do not buy" list, joining Patricia McKillip, Dennis McKiernan, Terry Brooks, Terry Goodkind, Robert Silverberg and a few others who shall remain nameless (since certain people on this board will flame me for all eternity if I mention any of them in a negative context!)
 
 <);^)~

Harun

20th June 2001, 22:26

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><BLOCKQUOTE>
 On 2001-06-21 03:38, Randal wrote:
 The Jeeves and Wooster TV series with Stephen Fry and Hugh Laurie is the funniest thing I've ever seen on television. I have them on DVD and watch them over and over again without getting tired of them. The books are just as funny.
 
 Eddings is now on my permanent "do not buy" list, joining Patricia McKillip, Dennis McKiernan, Terry Brooks, Terry Goodkind, Robert Silverberg and a few others who shall remain nameless (since certain people on this board will flame me for all eternity if I mention any of them in a negative context!)
 
 <);^)~
 </BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
 
 Man, McKieran is the most blatant Tolkien ripoff that I've ever seen. It was almost literally word-for-word.

Jean

21st June 2001, 09:18

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><BLOCKQUOTE>
 On 2001-06-21 03:38, Randal wrote:
 Eddings is now on my permanent "do not buy" list, joining Patricia McKillip, Dennis McKiernan, Terry Brooks, Terry Goodkind, Robert Silverberg and a few others who shall remain nameless (since certain people on this board will flame me for all eternity if I mention any of them in a negative context!)
 
 <);^)~
 </BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
 
 Hmm...those "certain ppl" won't be Melanie Rawn would they Randal? I hope not, I've got my flame thrower aimed at California as we speak just in case. lol
 
 I gave up on Terry Goodkind after book 4, Temple of the something... I cant' believe I read that many of them. <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif"> I can't just get rid of them...and Wizard's First Rule was ok.
 
 I've stopped reading Raymond E. Feist now. After Krondor: The Betrayal, I gave up on him. Never try to write a book from a game, doesn't work. It took me AGES to finish that book, and I was completely disappointed at the end.

Randal

21st June 2001, 11:17

Harun: McKiernan is unreadable. His imitation hobbits have names that Barney the Dinosaur would gag on.
 
 Jean: A gentleman never tells...
 
 <);^)~

Elin

21st June 2001, 17:10

Nathan:
 Yeah, I did recommend "Guns, Germs and Steel", I'm glad you liked it. And I think you should try Stephenson, "Cryptonomicon" isn't at all cyberpunky. I've also read Stephenson's "The Diamond Age", which is more cyberpunk, but I liked it a lot despite never having read any cp before. Now that I think of it, I'd hardly even classify "Cryptonomicon" as sf at all... oh well.

Harun

21st June 2001, 21:10

I'm surprised that you don't like Goodkind, Randal, considering Goodkind's rather strong dislike of communism. Though he is quite heavy-handed with his political views. And his sex-and-violence seems really forced and gratuitous.

Randal

22nd June 2001, 11:18

Harun: The latter is the main reason why I don't like Goodkind. When Jordan writes about the Forsaken or Darkfriends torturing people, he makes it clear that is a bad thing. When Martin writes dark scenes, it is from the persepective of a storyteller shining a bright light on the cockroaches in the corner. But when Goodkind writes scenes of evil, I get the impression he is enjoying (or more correctly, getting off on) it. Plus, his plots are really shallow and derivative.
 
 <);^)~

Harun

23rd June 2001, 00:56

Holy shit, Randal, you almost sound like a feminist. Has the Earth crashed into the sun?

Harun

23rd June 2001, 00:58

Yeah, Goodkind can't seem to get more than 100 pages or so without having a rape scene.

ShadowReaver

23rd June 2001, 03:31

wow. . .reading for pleasure. . .haven't done that in a while. . . .no energy left to read after 6.5 hours of school and 3-4 of homework. . .then my school schedule got easier. . .but i started dating this girl and therefore devoted all my free time to her. . . .sweet sweet summer vacation/unsweet-sweet girlfriend being a counselor at a summer camp all summer. . . .ahh well, now i get to catch up on other stuff. . .need to finish up this series about Merlin i started sometime last year. . . .also need to go sleep at somepoint. . . .seeing as how it's getting towards 3:30 AM. . . .not that it matters. . .i love being able to sleep till dinner time:)

Randal

23rd June 2001, 14:37

Harun: LOL! No, I just think graphic sexual content does nothing for fantasy. It's the literary equivalent of swearing: something you reach for when you haven't got the vocabulary to tell a more interesting story.
 
 <);^)~

nato

27th June 2001, 03:37

what's wrong w/ you people? This thread's important! Don't let it die!
 y'know, lolita the book is a lot more explicit than lolita the movie (the kubrick ver). Uh, it also has a lot more french, among other languages. See, I have this complaint that I have to be an academic and know at least french, and probably latin and some other languages as well, to read a good portion of classic english literature. And, I'm not complaining about the book itself, and nabakov is a genious at wordplay, and I can understand why he'd like to use other languages, but really...that and I'm annoyed that the one other language that I have the slightest facility w/ besides english is spanish, and one rarely sees that in literature.
 
 _________________
 Hail to the king, baby. Well, I thought it was funny.
 
 [ This Message was edited by: nato on 2001-06-27 18:43 ] [ This Message was edited by: nato on 2001-06-27 18:43 ]

Elin

27th June 2001, 17:48

Well, I took French in school, but it's not like I'm fluent. Though recently in my guide job I managed to say "There's Mercury" and "The Sun isn't in here" in French (being inside a dark room with all the planets in it). Hmm, I don't often see other languages in English books though. Maybe I don't read the right ones.
 
 Anyway, I was at the library today and saw one of Ursula Le Guin's latest on the shelf ("The Telling") which made me happy since I wanted to read it but thought it was too expensive to buy in hardback. I've read maybe a third of it now, and it's good, but not as good as some of her classical ones (e g "The Left Hand of Darkness" and "Shevek"). Though I liked "Four Ways to Forgiveness" a lot, which is also a recent one.

Harun

27th June 2001, 23:42

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><BLOCKQUOTE>
 On 2001-06-23 20:37, Randal wrote:
 Harun: LOL! No, I just think graphic sexual content does nothing for fantasy. It's the literary equivalent of swearing: something you reach for when you haven't got the vocabulary to tell a more interesting story.
 
 <);^)~
 
 </BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
 
 Yeah, I agree, if I want to read that, I'll get some pornography or something. As for swearing, if it fits, use it, and if it doesn't don't. That's what I say, at least.

nato

28th June 2001, 01:25

Well, if you read older English lit, it's not too improbable that you'll see some French. Though that's not to say it's always the case.

ShadowReaver

4th July 2001, 23:15

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><BLOCKQUOTE>
 On 2001-06-28 05:42, Harun wrote:
 <TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><BLOCKQUOTE>
 On 2001-06-23 20:37, Randal wrote:
 Harun: LOL! No, I just think graphic sexual content does nothing for fantasy. It's the literary equivalent of swearing: something you reach for when you haven't got the vocabulary to tell a more interesting story.
 
 <);^)~
 
 </BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
 
 Yeah, I agree, if I want to read that, I'll get some pornography or something. As for swearing, if it fits, use it, and if it doesn't don't. That's what I say, at least.
 </BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
 the same can be said of sexual content. . .though not graphic sexual content. . .writers still shouldn't feel confined by such things. . . .if it flows with the story put it in. . . .although i concur that in many cases there is blatant and explicit, often of a pornographic calibur, sexual content in both fantasy and science fiction, and seems to be more common in newer books. . . .from what i understand this is intentional in some cases. . .only way to make it appeal to more people than just the trekkies <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">

Jean

7th July 2001, 00:50

I watched this strange movie the other night called Gormenghast, and it was based on a trilogy of books...but I can't remember who wrote them! GRRR! I want to read them because the movie only covered the firt book I think. Anyway, I want to read and compare. <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> My fav character was Steerpike...I know he was suppose to be pure evil, but if I were him, I'd have turned bitter too. Though he didn't have to kill Nannie Slag. <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_frown.gif"> For anyone who's never heard of the movie or books, I've lost you by now, but anyhoo. hehe
 
 The movie (mini series really) was from the UK, I thought it was pretty nifty, really different from anything anyone would make in the US, or that's the way it seemed to me, the feel was different....

nato

7th July 2001, 03:36

It's by Mervin Peake, I believe. I bought the series, but I haven't read it yet...I definitly wanna see the series they're showing on tv, though. It looks cool. I think the first part is sposed to air here on sunday? I don't remember exactly. Thanks for giving it all away, Jean. :-P

Jean

7th July 2001, 14:51

Hey, you can find out ALL that info by reading the blurb in tv guide the next time you're in the grocery store. hehe
 I haven't given that much away. <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> Though I've been told I'm terrible at keeping my mouth shut about plots... JUST because I tried to get Jacob to look at the scriptment for the next Star Wars movie...hmph

wendy

11th July 2001, 11:10

Jean you absolutely must read the Gormenghast Trilogy. I have read the first book, called Titus Groan and must say it was some of the most beautiful and lyrical writing I have ever read. It is somewhat lacking in overall plot and is carried far more by extremely vivid characters and the anecdotal situations which they find themselves in. Steerpike is a fantastic character, he is beautiful for his cunning and abhorent for his evil all at once. My favoutire character is Fuschia though, you can dive right into her vivid imagination.

Jean

13th July 2001, 00:33

I'll try to find the books as soon as I finish the book I'm reading now. <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> I doubt I can find them at our library here, they have a small fantasy section. <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_frown.gif"> I'll go search my fav used book store first.

Elin

13th July 2001, 17:34

In Stockholm there's this great sf/f bookstore where I always go when I'm there. Now they've opened a store in Gothenburg too... Of course there are other bookstores do to some extent stock sf/f, but I was at this specialist store today and they have all kinds of obscure books you'd never find anywhere else... : )
 
 *floats on little pink clouds*

Jean

14th July 2001, 00:05

I'm jealous. <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_frown.gif"> We have really bad book stores here, hardly ANY sf/f. Thank goodness for our used book store, the only problems is, no new books. Have to go to Panama City (40 miles away) to find the new books I want. The joys of living in a small town. <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">
 
 I miss the libraries at my uni. The biggest was 5 stories and 2 sub basements of books. *sighs* There were 3 other libraries on campus and the public library, so I never lacked things to read. <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

Elin

14th July 2001, 12:44

Yup, university libraries are great too. You get to keep the books half a year or something if no one else is waiting in line. Plus they order the book you want with no cost from other uni libraries in the country if they don't have it. : )

ShadowReaver

19th July 2001, 01:01

hey, this is kinda out of the blue, but for anyone who hasn't, i seriously suggest reading the Ender's Game series. . . .prolly some of the best sci-fi i've ever read. . . .i was so saddened at the end of teh 1st book. . .not because of any events at the end but because it was over. . . .when that happens you KNOW it's a good read:)

nato

19th July 2001, 01:24

has anyone else been reading the parellell to the ender series, the Bean series, that starts w/ Ender's Shadow? I thought Ender's Shadow was phenomenal. I read it and reread Ender's Game, and I was really unable to see how I could have ever read Ender's Game w/o it. Shadow of the Hegemon was good too, if not as good, and follows a completely different line than the original Ender series. Card may be milking us for all we're worth, but he does it w/ class, and in the highest quality way possible.
 Actually, I've been to a couple booksignings of his, and he's a really warm and friendly person.

ShadowReaver

19th July 2001, 01:29

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><BLOCKQUOTE>
 On 2001-07-19 07:24, nato wrote:
 has anyone else been reading the parellell to the ender series, the Bean series, that starts w/ Ender's Shadow? I thought Ender's Shadow was phenomenal. I read it and reread Ender's Game, and I was really unable to see how I could have ever read Ender's Game w/o it. Shadow of the Hegemon was good too, if not as good, and follows a completely different line than the original Ender series. Card may be milking us for all we're worth, but he does it w/ class, and in the highest quality way possible.
 Actually, I've been to a couple booksignings of his, and he's a really warm and friendly person.
 
 </BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
 mmmm. . .yes well put Nato. . .Ender's Shadow gave new insight and understanding. . .plus was DAMN GOOD on it's own. . .but i considered it part of the ender series. . .was there anything following it? and yeah Card may be milking us. . .but im not sure if class even qualifies to describe it:)

nato

19th July 2001, 01:47

Yeah, it was followed by Shadow of the Hegemon. It's definitly worth reading, if not as brilliant as Ender's Shadow was.
 
 Actually, I don't exactly think he's milking us. Not really. I guess the original idea had been that other authors would write stories in the Ender universe paralleling Ender's Game from the perspective of some other character(s). And I'm pretty sure Card was approached to do this, not that he thought it up himself. Apparently he had an author lined up to do it and everything. Personally, no matter how good this author was, I would think it'd probably have turned out horrifically had Card not decided that Bean's story was too precious not to tell himself.

ShadowReaver

19th July 2001, 01:51

oh really? im so going to a bookstore tommarrow:)
 i'm very much releived that Card decided to write it himself. . . .i can't see myself appreciating a look into the Ender Universe unless it was through the vision of Card

wendy

19th July 2001, 07:29

Hmm I have heard that Beans story is good, I know Munky’s been reading it and babbling on about it. I will have to get it when I finish Children of the Mind. I have to admit, I don’t like it nearly so much as Xenocide, Speaker for the Dead or Enders Game, but I should stick with it. I agree with you ShadowReaver, Enders Game was awesome, I remember being sad it ended too. But what an ending! *gasp* But Speaker for the Dead lived up to it in every way, though it was a little more complex and took things in directions no one could forsee. Nato that’s so cool you met Orson Scott Card, he is seriously one of the finest writers I can think of. Not least because of the wisdom and understanding of human nature he has.

Min Farshaw

19th July 2001, 09:00

I fully loved the whole Ender saga, and the parallel books too <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> Has anyone read OSC's short stories? They're great!

ShadowReaver

20th July 2001, 02:16

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><BLOCKQUOTE>
 On 2001-07-19 13:29, wendy wrote:
 Hmm I have heard that Beans story is good, I know Munky’s been reading it and babbling on about it. I will have to get it when I finish Children of the Mind. I have to admit, I don’t like it nearly so much as Xenocide, Speaker for the Dead or Enders Game, but I should stick with it. I agree with you ShadowReaver, Enders Game was awesome, I remember being sad it ended too. But what an ending! *gasp* But Speaker for the Dead lived up to it in every way, though it was a little more complex and took things in directions no one could forsee. Nato that’s so cool you met Orson Scott Card, he is seriously one of the finest writers I can think of. Not least because of the wisdom and understanding of human nature he has.
 </BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
 
 i KNOW!!! the ending was awesome <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> *gasps* oh i love those books so much <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> i was a bit dissapointed by the later ones. . .i think progressively so. . .till ender's shadow. . .but when i say dissapointed i mean i still thought they were damn good. . .just not so damn good as the first one <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

nato

20th July 2001, 03:38

Yeah, I you should definitly check out the Bean series.
 
 I thought Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead were the best, by far. I love them both, but they're two very different books, so they're hard to choose between. Not that I really want to choose between them. Xenocide was also very good, if not great, but I thought CotM, although good, was a bit of a dissappointment. I think Card tends to have trouble ending series. The Homecoming series, which is another really good series by him, starts to go downhill in the last coupla books, and the last book really wasn't very good at all.
 
 Yeah, his short stories are some of his best work. The Folk of the Fringe is one of my favorite books of his.

Min Farshaw

20th July 2001, 08:42

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><BLOCKQUOTE>
 On 2001-07-20 09:38, nato wrote:
 The Homecoming series, which is another really good series by him, starts to go downhill in the last coupla books, and the last book really wasn't very good at all.
 </BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
 That doesn't sound promising... i only just finished the first book <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> I really enjoy OSC's dialogue, so i find myself looking forward to Issib's parts the most, whereas with the Ender series it was pretty much all sharp and witty <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

nato

21st July 2001, 02:00

Oh, uh, sorry if I discouraged you. I wasn't trying to. I definitly think they're worth reading. I loved the first three books. And I remember liking the fourth book, if not as much. It was only the fifth that I found really dissappointing. But, I should stop saying that. Forget I said anything. Talk to me later when you're done. Actually, don't, cause I won't have anything to say because it's been so long since I read them.
 Here's my daily dose of OSC trivia: Did ya know that the Homecoming series is based on a part of the book of mormon?

ShadowReaver

21st July 2001, 03:19

interesting. . . .how is that? and why is that? is Card mormon?

Randal

21st July 2001, 18:03

I read somewhere that Card is Mormon. He even lives in Utah.
 
 <);^)~

JoJo

21st July 2001, 19:18

hey, is harry potter worth reading just for kicks?
 
 _________________
 -JoJo <img src="http://www.101xfm.ca/ikonboard/emoticons/monkey.gif"</img> [ This Message was edited by: JoJo on 2001-07-22 01:18 ]

nato

22nd July 2001, 00:32

Card is a devout Mormon. In fact, his career really has two different branches...his scifi/fantasy work and his Mormon stories. A bunch of his scifi/fantasy stuff is heavily influenced by stuff from the Book of Mormon, but he also has stories that are just pure Mormon stuff. I believe he has a series going that's telling some parts of the book of Mormon from one of the women's perspective. So he does stuff like that.
 And no, he doesn't live in Utah, unless he moved recently. He lives in Greensboro, NC.

GWINNA

22nd July 2001, 00:46

Don't read Harry Potter for the reason that it is over hyped kids books being bought by mostly Adults because they thinkg its some sort of mindless craze and they are making it into a movie. I mean I'm sure they're realy good kids books but I am sick to death of hear about them. Besides the British tend to have a habbit of making kids stories that are realy twisted(Rohl Dahl or whatever his name was) or just plain odd(whinnie the Pooh) Couldn't stand them as kid!

ShadowReaver

22nd July 2001, 00:52

interesting. . .i've heard from people my own age (17) that the harry potter books are definately worth reading, and are really well written and entertaining. . . .i can't say myself. . .i left them to my little sister <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> . . .but who knows. . .can tell about them unless you try reading them yourself.

GWINNA

22nd July 2001, 00:56

I just don't want people to read them because I think that haveing Harry Potter always on the Best Sellers list is annoying, rent them or something just don't buy them!

Burr

22nd July 2001, 01:04

Roald Dahl is awesome! He was my favorite author for the longest time when I was a kid.
 
 He's the perfect kid mix of being neither too serious nor too fluffy bunny rabbits and the like.

GWINNA

22nd July 2001, 01:07

I like him too, but as an adult(sort of) I think back on it and thought it too violent for children to read of course I feel the same way about most children's shows but that's just me.

ShadowReaver

22nd July 2001, 01:17

bah too violent? this from a gunowner? silly conservative contradictions. . . .

GWINNA

22nd July 2001, 01:22

See this is the misconception and lies spread by the liberal. While I own guns I don't advocate shooting people unless in the defense of ones life or country. I also don't let children play with Guns, see, I don't want children exposed to it, adults can do what they wish.

ShadowReaver

22nd July 2001, 01:28

guns are tools of violence, no matter what the context. . .it's why they were invented in the first place. you're saying violence is bad (at least for children, which implies violence among adults is aacceptable behavior. . .which i doubt you mean), but you condone owning a gun, which is in essence owning a device made for killing. doesn't make sense to me.

GWINNA

22nd July 2001, 01:33

If you own a large knife not specificaly meant for cooking or anyother type device then you also do the same. You miss a couple of points:
 1) Kids aren't adult and aren't capable of understanding certain things or making informed decisions about them, i.e I trust my dad with a gun I don't trust my little neice with one hence kids need to be protected from violence until they can handle it.
 2)Just because you have a gun doesn't mean you have to shoot people!

nato

22nd July 2001, 04:08

Could you two PLEASE not turn every post into a debate about guns? JoJo made you guys a thread for that. Use it.

Beowulf

22nd July 2001, 05:46

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><BLOCKQUOTE>
 On 2001-07-22 01:18, JoJo wrote:
 hey, is harry potter worth reading just for kicks?
 
 _________________
 -JoJo <img src="http://www.101xfm.ca/ikonboard/emoticons/monkey.gif"</img>
 
 [ This Message was edited by: JoJo on 2001-07-22 01:18 ]
 </BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
 
 JoJo, I like Harry Potter books. I was bored over the last winter break so I bought one in the pharmacy one day and enjoyed it. It's light reading but entertaining and worth it, imo.

Jean

22nd July 2001, 10:07

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><BLOCKQUOTE>
 On 2001-07-22 06:46, G.W.I.N.N.A wrote:
 Don't read Harry Potter for the reason that it is over hyped kids books being bought by mostly Adults because they thinkg its some sort of mindless craze and they are making it into a movie. I mean I'm sure they're realy good kids books but I am sick to death of hear about them. Besides the British tend to have a habbit of making kids stories that are realy twisted(Rohl Dahl or whatever his name was) or just plain odd(whinnie the Pooh) Couldn't stand them as kid!
 </BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
 
 You dare defame the name of Pooh! Evil blasphemer! You say that childrens books are too violent and then that kids tv shows are too violent, so what's your reason for hating Pooh? Did he eat too much honey?
 
 <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_razz.gif"> Pooh was my favorite when I was little.

ShadowReaver

23rd July 2001, 00:09

yeah. . .who can hate a cute bear that eats honey and lives in a little boys imagination??? it's so. . .happy. . .and docile. . .and child friendly. . .

GWINNA

23rd July 2001, 00:31

Ok Pooh isn't that bad, its that as kid he always kid of annoyed me, eor(sp? the donkey) however I liked. As for the guns thing, I don't know how that keeps happenning, I start posting about something, then social science get involved, then somebody calls me a gun toting wacko or mentions my ownership of guns as part of an argument then that lights the toarch. Well I guess I do know how it starts, but i don't mean to. It just sort of happens. Sorry.

wendy

23rd July 2001, 05:58

OMG! Brits write the best books all round, especially in the childrens department. Roahl Dahl and Winnie the Pooh are great for kids. Rohal Dahl never sugar-coated anything, which is why you associate it with violence etc, but why should children be deived about the way life is? He puts a surreal spin on everything that has a lot to do with the way children see the world. I remember as a child reading Roahl Dahl was like being understood, finding a kindred spirit in his characters.

Min Farshaw

23rd July 2001, 08:35

Speaking of which... James and the Giant Peach was on a list of the 50 most banned books in America i found one time. Now is it just me, or is that just wrong? What on earth could put James and the Giant Peach on that list?!
 
 Best children's books... Trumpet of the Swan and Charlotte's Web. That guy can write! <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

wendy

23rd July 2001, 09:06

Hehe perhaps because his parents were eaten by a rampaging Hippopotamus? Americans have no sense of humour!

Jean

23rd July 2001, 10:12

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><BLOCKQUOTE>
 On 2001-07-23 15:06, wendy wrote:
 Hehe perhaps because his parents were eaten by a rampaging Hippopotamus? Americans have no sense of humour!
 </BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
 
 Some of us do have a sense of humor! LOL! I swear!
 
 I loved Charlotte's Web and Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. I don't think there's anything THAT violent in Roald Dahl's books. Plus, the US is censorship crazed, just give us an excuse and we'll ban it!

Malcor Sylverwood

23rd July 2001, 10:50

I just looked at a couple of banned lists...
 
 OK, banning Stephen King (I love his stuff, BTW) I can understand (sortof), but "Bridge to Taribithia"? Man, I loved that book as a kid. It and a book called "In the Keep of Time" (I think) and the Three Investigators made up my favorites...

Elin

23rd July 2001, 13:45

Whew... thanks for breaking off the gun debate, whoever did it. I'll have none of that on my nice little book thread...
 
 Anyway, my favorite Card books are the Alvin Maker series, particularly the first three of them. Funny noone's mentioned them yet, they are really great books.
 
 Btw, Charlotte's Web isn't Roald Dahl, is it? I can't dredge out of my brain who did write it, but it wasn't Dahl.
 
 About banned books, I think the ultimate irony is that some Christians want the Narnia series banned. Those are some of the most Christian fantasy books I've ever read... : )

Jean

23rd July 2001, 14:35

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><BLOCKQUOTE>
 On 2001-07-23 19:45, Elin wrote:
 Btw, Charlotte's Web isn't Roald Dahl, is it? I can't dredge out of my brain who did write it, but it wasn't Dahl. </BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
 
 Oh, it's by E.B. White. <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> Those where just 2 of my favorites, didn't mean both by Roald Dahl.
 
 
 <TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><BLOCKQUOTE>About banned books, I think the ultimate irony is that some Christians want the Narnia series banned. Those are some of the most Christian fantasy books I've ever read... : )
 </BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
 
 They tried to ban those from my school library, but I don't think it worked. Some parent said that it was too violent...one person gets upset and tries to ruin everything. My mom bought the books for me anyway. lol

JoJo

23rd July 2001, 19:09

i loved Narnia, Dahl, and Charlotte's Web!!
 
 Also, Gwinna, you say dahl is too violent for kids, but keep in mind he wrote several of his stories for adults. Like his collection of stories "The Wonderful Story of Henry Sugar," that was definitely written for older audiences.
 
 another good (english?) children's fantasy is Lloyd Alexander's Black Cauldron series.
 
 -JoJo

ShadowReaver

24th July 2001, 01:01

yeah the Narnia tales are awesome, despite they're christian background. . .always bothers me when stories are too obviously related to christianity. . .like i couldn't finish reading CS Lewis' Out Of The Silent Planet trilogy because the christian perspective became SO intense by the end of the second book. . .it was written like a passage from the bible. . . .bah i say!

wendy

24th July 2001, 05:35

It's ok Jean I was aware I was generalising :)
 
 I remember Bridge to Terabithia, that was a beautiful story! I am suprised they could ever ban that! I guess the idea of creating your own hidey hole of imagination away from adult influence is disturbing for more insecure people, or do you think its that the young girl died at the end?
 
 Narnia... they were great stories, though they got a little eery towards the later books. CS Lewis definately had a hidden Chistianity agenda.
 
 Hehe I remember when I was young I went to a non catholic school where each week you had to go spend an hour in your separate religion class (the athiests got to play sports! bastards!) I would go off to the Catholic class and we'd watch the Narnia Chronicles. hehe it was such candy coated rubbish really when put in that context. They work much better, once again, on the level that CS Lewis write children so well. I mean who _hasn't_ been mortally and heartbreakingly betrayed by their weasel-like brother? :P

Elin

24th July 2001, 13:09

Yeah, I've read the "Out of the Silent Planet" trilogy too, and it is the most overtly Christian work of fiction I've ever read. I finished it though, I liked C S Lewis writing style otherwise. If you just see it as fantasy you can stomach it. : )

GWINNA

24th July 2001, 16:19

What are you talking about? C.S.Lewis was a genus and the corralations with christianity are the whole point! What are you all atheist pigs? Bet you've never read the Screwtape Letters or The Great Divorce either? You missed the point. Sometimes it seems that I'm the only relegous person left in the world. BTW, did any of you actauly read The Wheel of TIme? It is loaded with corratlations to the bible and christianity. Lets just focus on rand for one:
 branded hands
 wound in his side
 crown of swords(thorns)
 I could go on but I won't.

JoJo

24th July 2001, 19:08

i read narnia when i was too young to notice the christian influences, so its all good. but despite this, i dont think you guys should let biblical references ruin your reading of a good book.
 
 i hate to say it, but i think Gwinna has a point. judeo-christian literature references abound not only in WoT, but countless other works of fiction. i see these references as clues to hidden themes and meanings, a look into the history of the book and author, among other things. i haven't read the bible, but i hope to someday so i can see more of these connections. religious or not, I think you need to be at least roughly acquainted with all of the classic religious texts (Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, etc.) in order to be a knowledgable reader. beyond that, these texts have some great stories in them.

Randal

24th July 2001, 21:39

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><BLOCKQUOTE>
 What are you all atheist pigs?
 </BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
 
 They aren't atheists. They worship Gaia, because that way they get to make up the rules as they go along.
 
 <);^)~

Randal

24th July 2001, 21:44

J.R.R. Tolkien also presents strong Christian allegories in Lord of the Rings, though not as overtly as C.S. Lewis, who was one of the great thinkers of the 20th century. Christian symbolism and allegory can be found in almost all great Western literature, as one would expect.
 
 <);^)~
 
 _________________
 "Run for your life from any man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter."
 
 -- Ayn Rand, 'Atlas Shrugged' [ This Message was edited by: Randal on 2001-07-25 03:46 ]

Jacob

25th July 2001, 16:27

Gosh, GWINNA, I do hope that you are joking a good bit with the "pigs" bit <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_eek.gif"> If not, well we don't sensor language here, but that does not mean that we approve of just anything.
 
 That being said, then yes, the Christian references in the Narnia Chronicles were part of the "point" from C.S. Lewis point of view. It was something that he wrote as a tribute in a way (I think you could say) after becomeing a Reborn Christian. Randal made a reference to J.R.R. Tolkien in one one of his replies; Tolkien and Lewis were actually very close friends, dating back a long time and Tolkien could well be given "credit" for Lewis "Rebirth". Even though Tolkien was dissapointed that he failed to also convince Lewis to convert to Catholisism.
 
 But to get back on track: It's quite natural that western literature quite often have Christian references. The western heretige IS a (for most part) Christian one and everyone pick up references from their society. But I certainly don't read (in general) because I want some nurturing of my Christianity! Sure, I may enjoy reading such books, but it's certainly not a requirement I set for a book. I read for enjoyment and I read to expand my mind. To nurture my soul, you might say. If I want to expand my mind, a book with references that I am NOT familiar with is certainly as good or better than a book with references that I'm not familiar with. Also, a book with TOO obvious a motive (for writing) tend to not be that good. Somewhat insulting, quite often, when it's clear that the writer attemts to "brain wash" me.
 
 I really itch to say something about Wendy here, about Atheism and such....but I'm afraid too, I've done such before and I've learnt my lesson...somewhat.
 
 
 [edit]I would also say something about atheists, but this is not the place for that...just that atheist does NOT = Evil or Bad.
 _________________
 Jacob
 
 What was that that bit about not minding and being mad and all that? That's a good one! [ This Message was edited by: Jacob on 2001-07-25 22:29 ]

JoJo

25th July 2001, 19:34

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><BLOCKQUOTE>
 On 2001-07-25 22:27, Jacob wrote:
 But to get back on track: It's quite natural that western literature quite often have Christian references. The western heretige IS a (for most part) Christian one and everyone pick up references from their society. But I certainly don't read (in general) because I want some nurturing of my Christianity! Sure, I may enjoy reading such books, but it's certainly not a requirement I set for a book. I read for enjoyment and I read to expand my mind. To nurture my soul, you might say. If I want to expand my mind, a book with references that I am NOT familiar with is certainly as good or better than a book with references that I'm not familiar with. Also, a book with TOO obvious a motive (for writing) tend to not be that good. Somewhat insulting, quite often, when it's clear that the writer attemts to "brain wash" me.
 </BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
 
 my thoughts exactly <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

GWINNA

26th July 2001, 00:01

Firstly, the atheist pig remark was a witty and humorous remark(and this is sarcasim folks, jeesh, relax!). Trust me, if I wanted to I could make much better insults.
 Now, how come when somebody writes a children's book about how lesbians and gays are ok and cool they are expressing an opinion and exposing people to something new, but when somebody writes a book with a christian slant they are trying to "brain wash" people. This seems odd.
 ~pulls out ruler~
 Gasp, A double standered! <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">

Jean

26th July 2001, 00:16

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><BLOCKQUOTE>
 On 2001-07-26 06:01, G.W.I.N.N.A wrote:
 Now, how come when somebody writes a children's book about how lesbians and gays are ok and cool they are expressing an opinion and exposing people to something new, but when somebody writes a book with a christian slant they are trying to "brain wash" people. This seems odd.
 ~pulls out ruler~
 Gasp, A double standered! <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">
 
 </BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
 
 Because one is a belief system and the other is personal opinion, you said it yourself. There is no comparison between the 2 as I see it. But, I don't think Jacob meant children's books, or even Christian book when he mentioned "brain washing," more books with a motive, any motive.

GWINNA

26th July 2001, 00:31

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><BLOCKQUOTE>
 On 2001-07-26 06:16, Jean wrote:
 <TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><BLOCKQUOTE>
 On 2001-07-26 06:01, G.W.I.N.N.A wrote:
 Now, how come when somebody writes a children's book about how lesbians and gays are ok and cool they are expressing an opinion and exposing people to something new, but when somebody writes a book with a christian slant they are trying to "brain wash" people. This seems odd.
 ~pulls out ruler~
 Gasp, A double standered! <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">
 
 </BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
 
 Because one is a belief system and the other is personal opinion, you said it yourself. There is no comparison between the 2 as I see it. But, I don't think Jacob meant children's books, or even Christian book when he mentioned "brain washing," more books with a motive, any motive.
 
 </BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
 Firstly, the beleifs and ideas can(and are) very intertwined in both cases. As for books with motives, all books have motives. It's called themes and damn it the word I'm looking for has just left the building. Anyway all books have them weither you realize it or not. Even WOT. In fact Jordan went out and said one of the reasons he wrote the book was to help demonstrate that there is evil in the world and moral relativism was moronic(don't know if he droped that now but that was fairly ealy on).

nato

26th July 2001, 03:42

Jacob. Are you still bitter that you couldn't convert Evan?
 
 
 Well, I'd say that homosexuality and christianity are too very different things, though they often tend to be at odds w/ one another. Though I will give you that there is, though not necessarily always, a certain set of beliefs and a certain culture that is often associated w/ and held by homosexuals. But, I really trying extra hard not to have to debate anything, cause I'm really lazy.
 In any case, I think there's a difference between books that expose one to some point of view and books that attempt to "brainwash". One is an author stating an opinion, the other is propoganda.
 Furthermore, the idea then any book w/ gay people in it is attempting to forward some agenda is bullshit. And the same goes for a book w/ christians in it, for that mater.
 ok, I'm starting to get flashbacks from junior yr english and our debate on whether or not huck finn is a racist text, so I'm gonan have to really not continue.

wendy

26th July 2001, 05:15

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><BLOCKQUOTE>
 
 I really itch to say something about Wendy here, about Atheism and such....but I'm afraid too, I've done such before and I've learnt my lesson...somewhat.
 
 </BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
 
 try me
 
 And Gwinna, settle petal, I don't think anyone here is complaining against those books. They are just discussing the undeniable christian agenda, and whether or not you see that agenda as a bad thing is personal, but it cannot be denied it is there. I found those books eery because it was almost as if CS Lewis felt that the story of christ needed to be handled in such a way to give to children as a replacement, at least thats how they were presented to me as a child (ie I went to religion classes and learnt nothing of jesus but watched The Narnia Chronicles) This seems to me a dangerous precedent, and I think perhaps it comes more from the laziness of school teachers, and the attempt to latch on to tradition established concepts to make your apologetics than form you own, than any intention of CS Lewis, but you can see that whether or not it was CS Lewis's intention to be propaganda, it has become a form of kindie propaganda. I like the idea he wrote them as more of a tribute, and that is how I will probably think of them from now on.

Judas

26th July 2001, 11:53

you know you have a phyco english teahcer when she gets you grounded for reading too much in class. my reading teacher talked to my parents because i read too much in class and got ahead of skedual. i dunno bout any of you, but that is odd to me.

Judas

26th July 2001, 11:58

ok think about the christianity references in all these books. ok think,,, what book has influences millions of people, changes countless lifes, and was writtend hundreds of years ago? ding ding ding, your corect, the bible is the right anser, tell em what they have one! ok, if a book has that much influence, then of course some authers are going use the basic storyline in it. it gives people somthing to relate to. and if you thik about it, almost any book can have references to biblical things, if you just look hard enough for it.

Elin

26th July 2001, 14:10

Methinks it is almost time for another religion thread...
 
 On the comparison of gay versus Christian themes, I'd say the difference is that most often books about gays do not want to convince everyone to be gay, just to gain acceptance for some people being gay, while some books with Christian themes (of which esp. the middle book in the CS Lewis trilogy) _do_ want to convince everyone to be Christian, which tends to put me off. I have no problem accepting that some people are Christians.
 
 Otherwise, I have read the Bible, and while it was occasionally poetic and meaningful, more often I found it boring, irrelevant, and full of violence and sexism. I've also read Tao Te Ching, Bhagavad Gita, and others (though not the Koran). Ok, gotta go, I'm in a hurry.

nato

27th July 2001, 02:28

I'm starting to feel like everyone's debating w/ themeselves here...but that could just be me.
 
 Anyway, Elin, I haven't read all of the bible, but the boring parts are INTERESTING! Like, if a lizard dies in one of my pots, now I know I have to break the pot and burry its shards, or some such convoluted thing. I had this class sophomore yr called Myth, Folktale, and Scifi, and we had to do a final paper and I did mine on ritual purity. I used stuff from mostly African Religions, and some from the bible. It's fascinating stuff.

wendy

27th July 2001, 07:08

nato I always debate with myself, as I'm the only person who ever understands what I am really saying! :P

JoJo

27th July 2001, 22:12

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><BLOCKQUOTE>
 On 2001-07-27 08:28, nato wrote:
 I had this class sophomore yr called Myth, Folktale, and Scifi, and we had to do a final paper and I did mine on ritual purity. I used stuff from mostly African Religions, and some from the bible. It's fascinating stuff.
 
 </BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
 
 ritual....purity.....mmmmmmmmmmm.....
 
 ok ~takes dirty mind to orgy thread~

nato

28th July 2001, 03:10

heh. I think I know what you mean. :-p
 
 Yeah, JoJo, like, for instance, did you know there is (or was) some tribe somewhere where the men cut their penises as a sort of male menstruation. Fun stuff, eh? Good for the body, mind, and soul.

Elin

28th July 2001, 04:34

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><BLOCKQUOTE>
 Anyway, Elin, I haven't read all of the bible, but the boring parts are INTERESTING! Like, if a lizard dies in one of my pots, now I know I have to break the pot and burry its shards, or some such convoluted thing. I had this class sophomore yr called Myth, Folktale, and Scifi, and we had to do a final paper and I did mine on ritual purity. I used stuff from mostly African Religions, and some from the bible. It's fascinating stuff.
 </BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
 
 Well, sure. But reading such a massive amount of it (Leviticus or wherever it is) can get kind of boring if you're not going to use it for some study. Funny thing is all the literal believers in the Bible have forgotten to practise all these rules... : )
 
 Anyway, now I'm curious. How did you relate all this stuff to sf? I mean, did you do analyses of books to see where their mythic themes come from?

nato

28th July 2001, 05:14

Well, that's not entirely true. Orthodox Jews have a fair number of strict rules they must follow, though what is in the bible is filtered through talmudic interpretation and altered to fit modern day life.
 
 Well, not everything in the class was about SF. In fact, SF was probably one of the less major portions of the class. But, um, it was a few yrs ago, and I can't really tell you why my topic was appropriate to the class, or what the exact criteria of the assignment were. But, it was interesting material, and I got a good grade, so I guess I did something right.

Jean

15th August 2001, 09:16

This is a bunch of crap, and it's happening in Florida. Morons.

Video demonizes 'Harry Potter' -
Books teach kids to access witchcraft, minister says

By Breuse Hickman
FLORIDA TODAY

Does reading the Harry Potter books turn kids onto witchcraft?

Yes, according to a controversial, locally produced video entitled "Harry Potter: Witchcraft Repackaged - Making Evil Look Innocent."

The one-hour video will be shown in at least 15 Brevard County churches starting Sunday, further perpetuating a controversy that has brewed worldwide since the best-selling book series was launched in 1998.

"For the first time in literary history, kids are learning about children accessing the power of witchcraft," said Robert S. McGee, an associate pastor at Merritt Island's First Baptist Church, who helped create the video. The video was produced by Story-Teller www.story-teller.com and distributed by the Christian company Jeremiah Films. McGee specifically contends the books are a gateway to Wicca, a neopagan religion. Since author J.K. Rowling published the first of her four Harry Potter books in 1998, conservative Christians worldwide have been outspoken with their objections. In England, the books were banished from one school because Harry's magical powers go against the teachings of the Bible. Parents in Oregon have asked that the books be banned because they promote hatred and rebellion.

The series tops the list of books "most challenged" in the nation's
schools and libraries, according to the American Library Association's (ALA) Office for Intellectual Freedom. The number of challenges to ban the books reported in 2000 was 646, triple that of 1999.

McGee said he helped make the video - available for $20 at
www.therealpotter.com - because he was amazed so many parents, even Christians, dismiss the books' contents as pure fantasy.

"The books are an accurate presentation of witchcraft, spirit possession and spells," said McGee, author of "The Search for Significance" ($14.99; W. Publishing Group), about personal self-worth based on the love of Jesus Christ. "These children read these books over and over, and what happens when they go to sleep at night? They dream. They dream about casting spells."

Some people are concerned the video will cast the beloved books in a false light, or worse, be used to stop kids from reading them.

"What worries me is that people who don't question sources will take this (video) at face value," said Cynthia Ridolf, Central Brevard Library youth services librarian, who has led Harry Potter reading clubs at the library. She recently watched the video. "They (video makers) take the books' examples out of context. It assumes that kids don't have a grasp of fantasy vs. reality. That is just not true."

Librarians, booksellers and parents worldwide have praised the Harry Potter books for encouraging children to read. Last year, Christianity Today magazine recommended parents read the series with their children.

Lynette Barnes, magazine coordinator at Barnes & Noble on Merritt Island, credits the books for improving her 13-year-old son Nathaniel's reading skills.

"He's read them all and has moved on to J.R.R. Tolkien's 'Lord of the Rings.' " she said. "The Potter books caught his attention and kindled his interest in reading."

Crystal Emmons, 12, has read the first three Harry Potter books 12 times each. "It's fun, because every time you read them you find something you missed," said Crystal, who attends Jackson Middle School. "I like the adventure, and the stories are fun."

An instant hit

Rowling's fantasy series turned into an international phenomenon almost immediately. Now, almost 40 million Harry Potters books are in print, available in 40 languages and found in 124 countries, according to USA Today.

The first film based on the series, "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's
Stone," directed by Chris Columbus, is scheduled to open in November. Additionally, a "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone" video game is due in fall.

Although many have challenged the books in the nation's schools and libraries, no one has done so yet in Brevard County, said Sara Stern, spokeswoman for Brevard Public Schools.

"The books are on (schools') accelerated reading list, but it is not
mandatory reading," she said.

Harry Potter is introduced to readers as an orphan living with relatives who despise him. On his 11th birthday, he learns he has magical abilities. When he was a baby, his parents were killed trying to fight an evil wizard, but Harry escaped with only a lightning bolt scar on his forehead. The series follows his adventures as he advances through Hogwart's School for Witchcraft and Wizardry.

McGee and other pastors who will show the video said they don't want to ban the book. Rather, they want to raise awareness about its negative themes.

"Fantasy is one thing, but Harry Potter books cross the line. It's a form of spiritism really," said Ray Goolsby, associate pastor at Merritt Island's East Coast Christian Center, which will show the video at 7 p.m. Wednesday.

Some of the video's claims about the Harry Potter series:

Symbols and spells in the books are similar to those found in the Wiccan religion. Broom sticks and pointed hats are phallic symbols within the Wicca religion. The lightning bolt on Harry Potter's head is one half of the Nazi swastika. The Bible sites references to Potter's messages: "The Goddess was worshipped as a Potter," (Zechariah 11:13). The books teach that witchcraft is for children. Those who practice witchcraft are compulsively into drug use, sexual activity and other destructive conduct. The concept of right vs. wrong does not exist in the worlds of Harry Potter or the Wicca religion.

As an example, the video cites the following passage from the first book: "See what I have become," the face said, "mere shadow and vapor. I have form only when I can share another's body. But there have always been those willing to let me into their hearts and minds. Unicorn blood has strengthened me these past weeks."

One of the most outspoken commentators in the video is Caryl Matrisciana described as a "cult and occult researcher." She also is co-founder of Jeremiah Films, the video's distribution company (www.jeremiahfilms.com). Matrisciana has attacked Mormonism and New Age philosophies in Christian books she either has written or co-written, according to the video's Web site.

Wiccan disagrees

Chris Jones of Satellite Beach, a self-described high priestess in the Wiccan religion, said the claims in the video are "laughable."

"This book is not accurate to what we do," said Jones, who believes the video confuses imaginative witchcraft, as in the Harry Potter books, with an unrelated form of witchcraft, in this case Wicca. "What I think is that half the kids in the country are illiterate and these books are helping them to read. I don't know who could possibly take it seriously."

Not all Christians are anti-Potter. Last year, an editorial in
Christianity Today magazine recommended parents read the books to their kids: "The literary witchcraft of the Harry Potter series has almost no resemblance to the I-am-God mumbo jumbo of Wiccan circles."

McGee is worried kids seeking information about Harry Potter online will end up exploring Wicca Web sites. He claims Wiccans have infiltrated his church's youth group meetings trying to recruit Christian kids.

Jones disputes this.

"We don't accept anyone into Wicca until they are 18," she said.
"Besides, you can't hold us or a book responsible for young people going to the bookstore or seeking information online. It's a free country, and we all have free minds."

Jones said Christian attacks against Wicca date to 1484, "when Pope Innocent VIII made goddess worship an offense punishable by death."

"That's when the burning of witches began. The pope finally realized it was unseemly to murder people. However, the church of Rome was allowed to rewrite our history, which is like the Nazis writing the history of the Jews. We've been trying to dispel those myths every since."

Psychiatrists like Harry

In June, members of the American Psychiatric Association analyzed the contents of Harry Potter books. Their conclusion: Harry is a wonderful wizard.

The novels' orphaned hero makes mistakes, but he comes through in the end, the report said. Harry not only survives an abusive childhood but comes out with hope and the ability to love intact.

"He is adventuresome, tolerant of a lot of negativism directed his way, yet is not aggressive, arrogant or clinically depressed," said Dr. Leah J. Dickstein, a psychiatrist and former elementary school teacher, during the APA's meeting in New Orleans.

Jeffrey Lauffer of Merritt Island agrees.

"I think the books teach wonderful family values," said Lauffer, 50, who works as an orbiter test conductor at Kennedy Space Center and has two grown children. "What a great way for parents to bond with their kids. If kids go off and try black magic, I'm sure they were inclined to do that from the beginning."

After visiting the video maker's Web site, Lauffer took issue with the categorical nature of the video.

"They (video makers) obviously see everything in terms black or white,"he said. "But that's not the way the world works, and you have to becapable of rational thought to see which shades of gray are bad and good."

Brandy Brown, 13, of Rockledge said she has read the books several times.

"Some of my Christian friends say it's evil, but I don't think it is,"
said Brandy, who attends Kennedy Middle School. "I think people should just read it if they want to. If they don't like it, maybe they can try reading something else instead."

Harun

31st August 2001, 01:19

I think it's time that the pagans started forcibly converting people.

Katya

31st August 2001, 02:21

I know this is way way way up toward the top of this thread, but....I actually happen to like Patricia McKillip....I think Winter Rose and The Book of Atrix Wolfe are brilliant. She has one of the most beautiful writing styles I have ever encountered, and her stories have a wonderful dreamlike, surreal atmosphere. But then, whoever said I'm likely to agree with Randal? <img src="http://101xfm.ca/ikonboard/emoticons/evilgrin.gif">

And as for what GWINNA said about Jordan writing WOT to show that evil exists and moral relativism is a bad idea, I certainly don't dispute the fact that evil exists, and I think that there are some things that are just plain wrong no matter who does them. For example, I don't think that people who oppose all forms of medical treatment for religious purposes should be allowed to legally let their children die because of their own beliefs, and I think that international standards of human rights should apply to every nation, no matter what their historical practices (just because your ancestors tortured people doesn't mean it's right for you to do it too because it's "part of the culture" or something). But unfortunately, reasonable people do disagree on what's right and wrong in some instances. For example, I think there is nothing morally wrong with homosexuality, but some other people consider it a sin. This doesn't mean there's no such thing as good and evil, or that we should stop trying to define what "good" and "evil" mean -- but it does mean that there's a large gray area outside the clear examples.

OK, rant over, back to books. I'm currently reading an oldie but goodie, "The Man in the Iron Mask" by Alexandre Dumas. Convoluted plot full of political intrigue, lots of historical figures included as characters, and chapter titles such as "In Which Porthos Thinks He Is Pursuing a Duchy." Very nineteenth-century long monologues. <img src="http://101xfm.ca/ikonboard/emoticons/cheesy.gif"> Good descriptions of lavish feasts and dark prisons. Amusing repartee. A bit slow/long-winded, but that's typical of the time. I recommend it, especially to Wotists who like all the manipulation, sneaky dealings, and ambitious schemes in WOT and other books.

And Harun....sorry, but I don't think pagans should start forcibly converting people. :-)

GWINNA

31st August 2001, 09:08

There is no gray only shades of black. I wasn't trying to say that those books don't have an agenda, I'm saying most books have an agenda(almost all) and if you just look at them you will see it. So what makes one agenda more acceptable than another in terms of being ignored? Why don't you just read the book and if it is well written enjoy it(if you can) instead of going insane because there happens to be a christian agenda to it?.
As for Harry Potter, haven't read it, don't intend to(because of all the stupid hype and I'm not a child) but I'll reserve judgement until I do. A couple of questions surround my anserw:
1) Does it realy support Satanism or just majic in general.
2) Does it encourage kids to do bad things
3) Does it encourage kids to hurt people and seek revenge.
And another thing, most kids don't know the diffrence between fantasy and reality, it is one of lifes most important lessons and people who think that kids don't need to be taught and constantly reminded of it are just lazy parents or ignorant new age thinkers.

Elin

31st August 2001, 13:20

As for Harry Potter, haven't read it, don't intend to(because of all the stupid hype and I'm not a child) but I'll reserve judgement until I do. A couple of questions surround my anserw:
1) Does it realy support Satanism or just majic in general.
2) Does it encourage kids to do bad things
3) Does it encourage kids to hurt people and seek revenge.
And another thing, most kids don't know the diffrence between fantasy and reality, it is one of lifes most important lessons and people who think that kids don't need to be taught and constantly reminded of it are just lazy parents or ignorant new age thinkers.

I've read the first Harry Potter book (not the others), and it doesn't do any of those three things. It's just a kids fantasy book, comparable to (for example) Diana Wynne Jones' books. It does make magic seem exciting, but so does practically any fantasy book.

I think kids are a lot better at distinguishing fantasy and reality than you give them credit for. I read huge amounts of books when I was younger, but from what I remember I was quite aware that they were fiction...

GWINNA

31st August 2001, 13:59

Originally posted by Elin

I've read the first Harry Potter book (not the others), and it doesn't do any of those three things. It's just a kids fantasy book, comparable to (for example) Diana Wynne Jones' books. It does make magic seem exciting, but so does practically any fantasy book.

I think kids are a lot better at distinguishing fantasy and reality than you give them credit for. I read huge amounts of books when I was younger, but from what I remember I was quite aware that they were fiction...
But you didn't inherently know that, you were taught that by your parents, the problem is that most parents are lazy bastards that are too slothful to beat their kids let alone teach them anything. But like I said I havn't read them but those three things are the major complaints I keep hearing about.

Harun

31st August 2001, 18:01

Elin

2nd September 2001, 17:45

Well, considering the fact that I've known a lot of pagans who are the moral superiors to quite a few Christians I'd hardly count the Potter books as a moral threat. Not to knock Christians or anything.

I didn't really find the Potter books to be pagan though (of course I've only read the first one). No more than any ordinary fantasy is pagan - though there is overtly pagan fantasy, just like there is Christian fantasy (Marion Zimmer Bradley's "Mists of Avalon" comes to mind). Of course I'm interpreting "pagan = neopagan, Wiccan", and I suppose if you interpret "pagan = non-Christian" then the Potter books are indeed pagan.

Katya

2nd September 2001, 22:57

GWINNA, I don't think most parents are too slothful to beat their kids. I think most parents don't beat their children because they have some notion of basic human morality. And I think that most parents who do beat their children do so because they have problems of their own, or because they are cruel and cowardly people who want to vent their aggression on someone powerless.

GWINNA

3rd September 2001, 07:12

don't go all hippie on me, kids need beatings.

Ulk

3rd September 2001, 10:06

and the occasional devouring of dead babies is good too! http://www.101xfm.ca/ikonboard/emoticons/stick.gif

GWINNA

3rd September 2001, 12:00

http://www.101xfm.ca/ikonboard/emoticons/stupid.gif

Ulk

3rd September 2001, 14:07

dude, i used that first!! therefore i own it and all its rights! shitty logic, but logic nonetheless! :p :D

GWINNA

3rd September 2001, 14:32

Originally posted by Ulk
dude, i used that first!! therefore i own it and all its rights! shitty logic, but logic nonetheless! :p :D
Apparently, I'm still http://www.101xfm.ca/ikonboard/emoticons/stupid.gif

Harun

6th September 2001, 23:43

Originally posted by G.W.I.N.N.A
don't go all hippie on me, kids need beatings.

Don't go all Blueshirt on me. Children should be treated with respect and dignity. That doesn't include beatings or coercive parenting.

GWINNA

6th September 2001, 23:58

Originally posted by Harun

Don't go all Blueshirt on me. Children should be treated with respect and dignity. That doesn't include beatings or coercive parenting.
Children need to be treated like children! A parent isn't supposed to be a kids friend, or confindant, their supposed to parent, and beatings are an important part of parenting.

JoJo

8th September 2001, 21:04

Originally posted by G.W.I.N.N.A

Children need to be treated like children! A parent isn't supposed to be a kids friend, or confindant, their supposed to parent, and beatings are an important part of parenting.

IMHO if you're a good parent, beatings shouldn't even be needed (even though they are despicable, and should never be necessary)