Mazrim Taim

[Meyley]

Just a bit of fluff, but has anyone discussed the possibility of Taim having been turned to the Dark One? Might explain a lot of his anger...

[LaughingTurtle]

Most likely, but i don't remember the discussion. I don't know bout the whole meanness thingy though, maybe he just forgot to go to his anger management classes for like the past...uh eternity.

[shinote]

I know this has been argued to death, and maybe I missed somethign disclaiming it. but I still think mazrim taim is demendred... I mean seriously... the signs all point to it. the look the personality... the fact that therin starts ranting about the forsaken and ending it everytime he sees taim. there is more but I have't read the series streight through in a very long time.

matt

[magatsu17]

Me and my brother have discussed this topic, and we still disagree, he thinks that it's obvious that Taim is a Dreadlord, while I think Taim while greedy and power hungry still haven't shown any proof to him being a dark friend yet. but there is one point of his arguement that I still can't dispute, how can Taim who is in his Middle years have been channeling Saidin for so long with out going insane if he didn't have a Tie to the Dark One. I still haven't come up with an answer to that one.

[GWINNA]

Perhaps Tiam is even more intersting then that, perhaps he wasn't a natural channeler and was taught at a slightly older age by someone else and hasn't been channeling that long. Perhaps he isn't realy taim at all but an imposter who is being used to get close to Rand.

[QuirkyTemplate]

Taim is not Demendred. It's so obvious that it's not true. No way on how.

[GWINNA]

Just because Taim isn't Demondred doesn't mean he has to be the real Taim.

[balefire]

Originally posted by QuirkyTemplate
Taim is not Demendred. It's so obvious that it's not true. No way on how.

Why are you so sure? I don't think the matter's been resolved yet. Any new clues from Winter's Heart?

[magatsu17]

Oh yea there's proof in Winter's Heart, but do you want me to spoil it for you, I know that my brother spoiled some things for me the first time I read the series and I wouldn't want to do that to anyone.

[shinote]

Originally posted by QuirkyTemplate
Taim is not Demendred. It's so obvious that it's not true. No way on how.

the simplest solution is usually the correct solution.

matt

[QuirkyTemplate]

Has RJ ever done the "easy solution"? Tellin' ya man, Taim is a crossdressing hooker from 1923. Wait'll RJ hits ya with *that* one!

[shinote]

Now THAT would be cool

matt

[balefire]

Originally posted by magatsu17
Oh yea there's proof in Winter's Heart, but do you want me to spoil it for you, I know that my brother spoiled some things for me the first time I read the series and I wouldn't want to do that to anyone.

It's so exasperating that I can't get my flaming hands or a Draghkar-kissing copy of Winter's Heart. I have no bloody idea what in the Light is happening. But if Taim isn't Demandred, that makes him all the more mysterious.

[GWINNA]

Taim is realy Rands Father! see RJ love Star Wars, He George Lucus have a little club and Lucus dresses up as Vader and RJ dresses like Mat, and you see Lucus is Realy the DArk One and Its all realy about Else Grinwald, She's the main charecter!
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[QuirkyTemplate]

Taim is realy Rands Father! see RJ love Star Wars, He George Lucus have a little club and Lucus dresses up as Vader and RJ dresses like Mat, and you see Lucus is Realy the DArk One and Its all realy about Else Grinwald, She's the main charecter!
AAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
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Well then, that's just not practical! We all know that RJ dresses up as Min.

[Mann]

Originally posted by shinote


the simplest solution is usually the correct solution.

matt

But the difference between the easy way and the hard way is that the hard way actually works.

[shinote]

I said nothing about difficulty... I was talking about simplicity... there in lies a HUGE difference

matt

[dragonforce]

I read The Winter's Heart that is the ninth book. One of the Asa'man was talking to the other Asa'man about Taim that he will give them Immortality to kill Rand. I think Logain will be the leader of the Asa'man and depose Taim and send himself to Rand and show the traitor Taim head. Two of the Asa'man died from the guy who hate Rand.

[Molimo]

Gosh, really? I thought that Winter's Heart was the eighth! :rolleyes: Anyway... I think that Rand will do something horrible to Taim when he finds out, but Taim will escape and beg for mercy from one of the Chosen... Rand will put Logain in charge, but it will be a big mistake, and Logain will split the Black Tower... and yes, two Asha'man were killed, but I'm not sure who you mean by "the guy who hate Rand". There are many. I think you mean Padan Fain/ Mordeth, though.

[quiktitanium]

i always thought logain was a good guy...

[Molimo]

Oh, he's against the Big Bad D-O, but I don't think he's on Rand's side.

[quiktitanium]

oh cause haven't we been saying that logain is going to lead the black tower for Rand and Taim, against?

[dragonforce]

I think it is the peddler that came to Rand village that is crazy I was talking about he killed the three be exactly one was in the city street the other was in the house where they couldn't use their powers.

[satan]

i posted somehwere else proff that taim is not demaidred.. but i don't feel like coping it

satan

[baxts]

theres only a dozen threads with it in satan, im sure it wont be hard to find!!

[satan]

nono i actally got a quote out of the books...

satan

[baxts]

you mean the one that... torval or kisman i think it was??.. (In winters heart, while rand is in Far madding) said they had recieved instructions from taim, and then similar but slightly different ones from Demandred, as if Taim didnt know??

I dunno, easy enough prestense to put up if dem didnt want his minions to know who he is. dont think hes dem myself, but its a bit thin in my book as evidence to rule it out completely

[epiph]

the other thing in winter's heart that points to taim not being demandred is in the with the choedan kal, from demandred's pov, he doesn't recognize flinn. anyone who had been posing as taim would definately recognize one of the first soldiers...

another thing that just occurred to me: elsewhere i posted a quote from sammael's thoughts about how "events to the south" looked like they had demandred's mark on them, and how demandred always liked to use proxies. but what if demandred (and i know that the forsaken tea party would have us believe that demandred is in charge of the asha'man, but bear with me) isn't really in charge of the asha'man and he was doing something completely different? of course, i'm going by sammael's thoughts, which could be wrong, but it fits with rj leading us to believe one thing and then dumping another on our heads...

[satan]

yeah baxts... thats the one i'm talking about

satan

[TimGoldenboots]

I never bought the "It's too obvious to be true" arguement... since that is the line of thinking that leads people to the conclion that Rand is not the Dragon reborn because it is too obvious...

However, after Winter's Heart, the only way Demandred could be Taim is if he has Alzhiemer's... I mean come on... Flinn was on of the first Asha'man Taim trained... and he remembers them all enough to put them on the Traitor's list later...

But just because Taim is not Demandred does not mean he is a good person... Remember where he was running from when he showed up in Andor... He was the only Male Channeler to escape the Aes Sedai in known history(Not counting Logian which came later)... and aparently without the help of his followers since he didn't have them with him...

Logain's escape was an inside job, and it stands to reason that Taim's escape was as well... he was either already sworn to serve the DO or took it as a viable alternative to being Gentled when one BA asked him... or at the very least, he was taken from captivity to a meeting with 13 Black Ajah and 13 Myrdraal and forced to the dark side(least likely since he would have likely as not gone willingly)

[baxts]

I still reckon hes a dreadlord ishy either let out of a stasis box (most likely) or raised and trained himself (least likely)

~"i will not be moved or unconvinced", baxts~~

[TimGoldenboots]

It is as likely as anything else... That Ishamael trained him I mean... The Stasis box part is a bit of a stretch for me, since there would be no need to go to that extreme... the "Dreadlords" came from the Trolloc wars and likely as not Ishamael trained the first of them as well... If he can train them then he can train them now.

A darkfriend born with the spark in him, I am sure Ishamael would find a use for them in any day. And Especially in the end of days....

[epiph]

tim...i are you sure you're not clued into my thoughts?

[baxts]

did ishy train d/lords in the trolloc wars?? i spose they had to come from somewhere. i remember the story moirane told about the fall of manetheren, and the dreadlords there, but was it really ishy that did the training, does it say so, or is this supposition??

[isaac]

Somewhere there is another thread where the possibility of Taim being Moridin is discussed.

When Sammael and Graendal go to meet with Sevannah, they are watched by someone who is only described as "the watcher". Ths watcher is using the True Power and appears just before Moridin makes his first appearance with Moggy. This suggests that this person may be Moridin.

This watcher refers to "these so-called Aiel". It may only be a chance use of the same phrase, but the only other person I can remember using the term "so-called Aiel" is Taim.

[TimGoldenboots]

Originally posted by baxts
did ishy train d/lords in the trolloc wars?? i spose they had to come from somewhere. i remember the story moirane told about the fall of manetheren, and the dreadlords there, but was it really ishy that did the training, does it say so, or is this supposition??

It's all suposition... Up until TDR, every Aes Sedai was convinced that Ishamael was bound to Shayol Ghul and Ba'alazamon was the Trolloc name for the Dark One.

Therefore, during the Trolloc Wars, the male Dreadlords rose and faught along side the female Dredlords(Mostly Black Ajah I am sure) but there was never any certainty where they came from... all that is known of them is that the Male Dreadlords were never seen again after the Trolloc Wars. however, if Ishamael was in a position to protect them from the Taint, then it is actually posible that there have been small numbers of Dreadlords out in the world doing Ishamael's buisness... Maybe Taim was a Dreadlord who was ordered to proclaim himself as The Dragon Reborn just to stir up the borderlands...

With that line of thought in mind... maybe Taim's group are actually all Dreadlords themselves...

[Nobbin]

Good ideas Tim, as always :)

only other person I can remember using the term "so-called Aiel" is Taim.
Can I get a confirmation on this? If Taim calls the Aiel "so-called Aiel" he is almost defintaely from the Age of Legends... Unless RJ screwed up (again).

[TimGoldenboots]

[LOC: 11, Lessons and Teachers, 215]

Again from the FAQ... I don't have my book here, but that is the chapter that it claims Taim calls them "So-called Aiel"

But Taim cannot be Moridin... Mostly because Taim Ordered Rand's death in Winter's Heart. Then, later, during the Forsaken Tea Party, Demandred says, "So we finally get to kill him." and Moridin smiles and responds, "If it comes to that" meaning not at this time...

Moridin wants to keep Rand alive and would not have sent people to hunt him down and kill him.

[Nobbin]

Aye, but at a time, at the end of book 3, Rand sees Ishy (who he thinks is the DO and thinks that Ishy has a burning desire to kill him... So Ishy's motives may also change through time.

[TimGoldenboots]

Yea, Ishamael was ever so willing to trade Rand's life for his own... Funny how that works out. But if his own life was not at stake, Ishamael/Moridin was never willing to order Rand's death.

[Elan Tedronai]

But Taim can't be Demandred because Demandred is one of the Asha'man (forgotten which, but it says in Winters Heart)

[epiph]

no, osan'gar is one of the asha'man...ie aginor is dashiva...

[Carrig Gaidin]

Originally posted by TimGoldenboots
[LOC: 11, Lessons and Teachers, 215]

Again from the FAQ... I don't have my book here, but that is the chapter that it claims Taim calls them "So-called Aiel"


Here's the exact quote from Taim:

"And who can know what these so-called Aiel will do"



Interesting. I can't believe I didn't catch that before....

[Corvus Corax]

I'd think anyone from the AoL would call them so-called Aiel. If you see the difference between the original Aiel , who wouldn't hurt a flie, and the Aiel in the third age, who could kill you with just a flie, you would also call them so-called Aiel.

Anybody from the AoL would fill that subscription, not just Moridin.

[TimGoldenboots]

So that could be evidence of the Stasis Box theory... OR...

We know that 12 of the 13 forsaken were bound in Shayol Ghul, and Ishamael was partially bound...

We also know that during the War of Power, the Forsaken were gathering their own followers to fight on the DO's side. Some went willingly, while others were turned. Semirhage seemed especially proud of her method of turning people...

We also know that LTT hated Taim as soon as he was introduced to Rand. Hated him and always started saying how he was going to kill all of the Forsaken especially Demandred!

What we don't know, is if any of the followers were present when LTT Sealed them all up inside the DO's Prison. It stands to reason, that once the DO was sealed away, most of the names of the minor characters would soon be forgotten and only the 13 most feared names would be mentioned in the History books... the 13 Chosen by the DO to lead his Armies to the fight the forces of the Light.

So if Demandred's personal assistant happened to be there when they were imprisoned for 3,000 years... He could slip back into the world easily enough and nobody would even remember his name or deeds...

LTT remembers though... having a great rivalry with Demandred, LTT would remember those who served him as well. Also it would explain how Demandred is "Keeping an Eye" on Rand, yet we have seen no evidence of him lurking aournd. He simply has Taim leading the Asha'man, building an army of Dreadlords in the process and reporting back to Demandred whener he needs to.

[Carrig Gaidin]

Originally posted by Corvus Corax
I'd think anyone from the AoL would call them so-called Aiel. If you see the difference between the original Aiel , who wouldn't hurt a flie, and the Aiel in the third age, who could kill you with just a flie, you would also call them so-called Aiel.

Anybody from the AoL would fill that subscription, not just Moridin.

If anything, I think it makes it less likely that Taim is Morridin. Ishy has been around for the past 3000 years and wouldn't think much of anything of Aiel in their present state. I mean, its hardly a new situation....

[TimGoldenboots]

Yea, I don't see much to indicate that Taim is Moridin... Moridin is most likely the guy who showed up at the end of CoS to make sure Rand survived his encounter with Sammael...

Besides, Taim has his mood swings and needs some anger management classes. Moridin seems quite in control of himself and doesn't seem to get angry very often... two completely diferent personalities...

Besides, Moridin has more important things to do with his time than babysit a bunch of trainies... Even though Taim doesn't spend much time with giving lessons, other than his private lessons... it seems that he is almost always at the Black Tower...