Moiraine and Lan

[Berk]

Hello everyone,

I am an old Wotismist who has not posted in well over a year. Recently I saw a theory on another board which I really liked, noticed that the theory has not appeared on this board, and decided to register and post to introduce those who have not seen it to this amazingly simple theory which I never caught on to even with reading The Fires of Heaven almost 10 times.

We know that Moiraine enters the Finn doorway in The Shadow Rising and keeps her bond to Lan intact. However, when she enters door two the bond is no longer there. Many people take this to mean that Moiraine is dead. Moiraine might very well be dead, but not for this reason.

"...her eyes darted, searching for Lan, found him lying almost against the foggy gray wall of the dome that stretched overhead. He twitched, perhaps trying to find strength to rise, perhaps dying. She forced him out of her mind. He had..."

It is my belief that when she "forced him out of her mind" she was forcing out his presence; i.e. passing the bond on to Myrelle. Thus, the fact that the bond was severed is not proof of Moiraine's death. Whether she is actually alive or not is a different story.

David Berkowitz

[QuirkyTemplate]

Mayhap, mayhap ... it does seem a little out there though.

[balefire]

Originally posted by Berk
"...her eyes darted, searching for Lan, found him lying almost against the foggy gray wall of the dome that stretched overhead. He twitched, perhaps trying to find strength to rise, perhaps dying. She forced him out of her mind. He had..."

It is my belief that when she "forced him out of her mind" she was forcing out his presence; i.e. passing the bond on to Myrelle. Thus, the fact that the bond was severed is not proof of Moiraine's death. Whether she is actually alive or not is a different story.

I don't think she passed the bond like that. She said in The Great Hunt that the bond is transferred if she dies. Since the bond is woven from the Power, she must use saidar to do anything to it. And I don't think she had embraced the Source at that point. She did so only on launching herself at Lanfear. I don't think Moiraine's dead because Min once reflected that Moiraine was the only viewing that failed to materialize. Since Min is never wrong, Moiraine can't be gone for good. Besides she's too important to the story to have her thread yanked out after just 5 books. Of course she might not return as herself ie. she might get a new body or something. Some people have already theorized that she's crammed into Cyndane's body with Lanfear. I don't know about that since Cyndane doesn't show up much in The Path of Daggers & I haven't read Winter's Heart yet.

[magatsu17]

Well I have read Winter's Heart and can confirm that Moraine isn't sharing Cydane's since you get a POV from her and she confirms herself as Lanfear. But as for the Moraine and Lan Theroy, I don't think that right, I think it's reading a lil to much into the words. I think more than that has to be done to break a bond. She was just forcing herself to focus on what was important. Saving Rand.

[Yudi]

I think it works. When I first started reading the series, everyone I spoke to told me to pay attention to everything because RJ does not waste any words. In the passage, after it says that Moirane forced Lan out of her mind, she then thinks about how many times he had saved her from the shadow, how what she did was for the best and how he will have to live to carry on his war with the shadow. As such, it can not mean that she just stopped thinking about him, because she goes on thinking about him! The only explanation can be that she literally forced him out of her mind. In RJ speak, I think that means passing the bond.
Also, I do not believe that it is true that a bond can only be broken with death. Brigetta tells Elayne and Nyneve about an accepted from centuries ago who bonded a warder because they were in love, and that the Ais Sedai forced her to give up the bond. In other words, I think an Ais Sedai does have the ability to let go of a bond before death.

[balefire]

But still the Power is needed to do anything to the bond. She set the bond to be passed to Myrelle long ago (she revealed it back in TGH). And she wasn't embracing the Source until she jumped onto Lanfear.

[GWINNA]

I think the "forcing him out of her mind" bit was more or less what other Aes Sedia do in hiding their thoughts and presence, we have seen it done abit in Winters Heart. Now as for the cydane's theroy:
it is still possible(that doesn't mean it is true however)
The theory centers on Lanfear in Moraines body.
1)Moraines mind and soul need not be in that body, maybe they are in Lanfears body, maybe not
2)even if they are in the same body, nothing says they have to interact, they could be completely seperate and unaware of each other, it is possible that latter on they would start to interact, or the might not, only RJ knows for sure.

[magatsu17]

Well I can only go on what I know, and I know that Isam/Luc are the only example of two people in one body in the series, But they are it's wierd cause it's almost like they are one person with two seperate forms. That what it seems to me.

[Berk]

Maybe after setting up the system where the bond passes to Myrelle, the only thing stopping the bond transfer was a conscious act on moiraine's part not let it go. Or, to be more exact, never having a concious act on her part TO let it go.

[balefire]

Originally posted by Berk
Maybe after setting up the system where the bond passes to Myrelle, the only thing stopping the bond transfer was a conscious act on moiraine's part not let it go. Or, to be more exact, never having a concious act on her part TO let it go.

Well I don't think so, because she told Lan she altered the bond because she didn't want him to waste his life on revenge after she died. The bond was meant to be transferred only on her death.

[Berk]

That the bond was meant to be passed on death, i agree. But remember, there was a time in book 4, i believe, that Moiraine was wondering when Lan would come to ask that the bond be passed to Nynaeve. In other words, it is possible to pass the bond also willingly.

Balefire, if you do not agree with this possibility, that is fine. No problems. The question is not whether you agree or disagree, it is whether you can prove or disprove. :)

[balefire]

Originally posted by Berk
That the bond was meant to be passed on death, i agree. But remember, there was a time in book 4, i believe, that Moiraine was wondering when Lan would come to ask that the bond be passed to Nynaeve. In other words, it is possible to pass the bond also willingly.

Balefire, if you do not agree with this possibility, that is fine. No problems. The question is not whether you agree or disagree, it is whether you can prove or disprove. :)

I don't claim to be able to prove anything here, since this is all speculation ie. RJ never said anything about the bond, so we can't be absolutely certain we've got all the facts right, it may be that everything I say is wrong. But I'm not denying that the bond transfer thing is voluntary, I'm just saying it's unlikely Moiraine transferred it to Myrelle right before she attacked Lanfear because the Power is required to do anything involving the bond & she hasn't embraced the Source yet. Also, if she was certain she would be killed by Lanfear, as implied in the book, why should she break the bond herself? It would break in a few seconds' time anyway, once she actually attacks Lanfear & gets killed in the process.

[Berk]

Except for that fact that she told the girls eariler she knew something about the afterlife which wasn't important for them to know.

Personally, it never says anywhere that she knew she would DIE, only that she would not be around any longer, at least for awhile.

[balefire]

Originally posted by Berk
Except for that fact that she told the girls eariler she knew something about the afterlife which wasn't important for them to know.

Personally, it never says anywhere that she knew she would DIE, only that she would not be around any longer, at least for awhile.

She never actually said right out she knew she would die, but there's been plenty of hints, especially in book 5, that she knew of the Lanfear scene in advance & she would die.

[Berk]

That she knew of the Lanfear scene, theres no question there were hints; I can name 5 right off the bat.

That she knew she would die...that I am not so sure of.

What she knew was that she would take Lanfear with her through the doorway, dying was never mentioned.

[Yudi]

I agree with Berk. Not only was it never mentioned that Moiraine knew she would die, but in book four she mentions to Nyneve and Elaine that "I know the face of the man I am going to marry." Now she might have just been saying that to egg them on, or not. This was before she entered the doorway in the basement, so she had not had the oppurtunity to ask her three questions. On the other hand, she probably knew about Min's viewing of her. I mean she grilled Min in book one and Min even mentioned that to Rand.
Also - and I think this is a major point - how would Moiraine know that the two of them going through that doorway would kill them? She knew that three people had been in the one at Tear, and all three made it out.

[magatsu17]

I myself don't think that she died, maybe being in world of the finns, cut the bond. that's what I always thought.

[LaughingTurtle]

Right on magy, she can't be dead...*sniff, sniff* I mean she was the best AS out there, and one of the coolest characters in the series.



~~Goes back to wishing that she will return in Book 10...~~

[balefire]

Originally posted by Yudi
I agree with Berk. Not only was it never mentioned that Moiraine knew she would die, but in book four she mentions to Nyneve and Elaine that "I know the face of the man I am going to marry." Now she might have just been saying that to egg them on, or not. This was before she entered the doorway in the basement, so she had not had the oppurtunity to ask her three questions. On the other hand, she probably knew about Min's viewing of her. I mean she grilled Min in book one and Min even mentioned that to Rand.
Also - and I think this is a major point - how would Moiraine know that the two of them going through that doorway would kill them? She knew that three people had been in the one at Tear, and all three made it out.

As I said in 1 of my earlier posts, I don't believe she's dead, because there's too many hints that she's coming back 1 of these days. All I meant was that I don't believe she transferred her bond to Myrelle just before she jumped onto Lanfear because the bond was meant to be broken only upon her death. What use is it to transfer the bond beforehand, even if she could?
And I don't think Moiraine actually knows if going through the doorway would kill them both. It's more like she knew she had very little hope of battling a Forsaken & getting off alive, even if she wins. That's why Rand, Lan, Egwene, Aviendha & everyone else around thought she must be dead. As you pointed out, 3 people went through the Tear doorway, & 2 of them ta'veren, with no ill effects.

[balefire]

Originally posted by LaughingTurtle
she can't be dead...*sniff, sniff* I mean she was the best AS out there, and one of the coolest characters in the series.

~~Goes back to wishing that she will return in Book 10...~~

I flaming agree. I'll happily trade the lives of every Aes Sedai in the Tower in return for Moiraine's. And yes, I wish she weren't missing for so long. It's been 4 books, & still no sign of her. I hope she turns up alive & well in book 10...

[Berk]

This is one of the great things about RJ's writing style.

In the first few books, when the kids were all wet behind the ears, all the cities were huge, and all the Aes Sedai were these almost Godlike creatures from legend.

In the later books, as the characters mature, we see that the Aes Sedai are not as smart as we all thought, the same fears, misconceptions, etc. as the rest of the world.

I am not so sure that when Moiraine comes back, she will still fall into the first catergory. I think she will be common in that regard.

The reason Cadsuane is so overwhelming is because she acts like legends say Aes Sedai should act. No one else does.

[Yudi]

ALthough Cadsuane only seems to be a legend to other Aes Sedia. Nobody else - especially those individuals who have had it up to here with Aes Sedai - seems to treat her any different than they treat any other one. The only difference seems to be over age and a reaction to how the other women treat her.

[magatsu17]

Sorry Yudi, but I gotta go with Berk on this one, Cadsuane does act like every Aes Sedai should act. She has her prioites straight and she know to get things done. She doesn't mind humbling herself to get the job done either, or atleast I don't think she does we haven't come to that with her yet. She one of the few Aes Sedai to earn the Respect of the Wise Ones and I think that say's alot.