Where is Demondred?

[GWINNA]

We know he was close to Rand.
<BR>We know he wasn't Taim.
<BR>We know he wasn't Dashiva.
<BR>Who is he?
<BR>It has to be someone introduced in the 6th book and there has to be some foreshodowing to it being Dem.
<BR>Anyone got any ideas?

[Jacob]

I was going to say Weiramon but...he should darn well know/recognize Damer Flinn, shouldn't he? (Flinn is the Finn btw:)
<BR>
<BR>I've reached the point here where I strongly suspect that RJ hasn't really made up his mind about this...might be that all the hints about Demandred being someone close to Rand, someone we know...is just all wrong. Maybe RJ had Demandred set to be Mazrim Taim at first (certainly enough hints!) but then he decided that A. TOO many hints, so he changed his mind. B. Didn't fit with the way he was taking his story, so he changed his mind about Demandered being Taim...because he could do this as nothing was really set 100% in stone?
<BR>
<BR>Jacob

[GWINNA]

That is a very disheartening thought. I would hate for that to be the case. <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_confused.gif">

[Jacob]

Well, if it's true, maybe RJ thinks up something really niftylike along the way so that you never find out? <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>Jacob

[Sofie]

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<BR>On 2001-05-28 17:49, G.W.I.N.N.A wrote:
<BR>We know he was close to Rand.
<BR>We know he wasn't Taim.
<BR>We know he wasn't Dashiva.
<BR>Who is he?
<BR>It has to be someone introduced in the 6th book and there has to be some foreshodowing to it being Dem.
<BR>Anyone got any ideas?
<BR>
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<BR>
<BR>Okay, okay, I'll tell you. Demandred is in my wardrobe.
<BR>
<BR>BTW, are we completely sure he isn't Taim? I'm not, but I really don't want him to be.
<BR>
<BR>Sofie
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>Furthermore, I believe the Aiel should be destroyed.<BR><BR><font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sofie on 2001-06-12 02:49 ]</font>

[GWINNA]

Well at this point it seems unlikly that Demondred is Taim as Demondred failed to reconize someone that Taim should know and be able to reconize. I've reread the 9th book recently and I am 95% sure that Demondred is not Taim. But if you have any reason why he still could be Taim let me know as I am getting bored living in an area that New Yorkers "affectionatly" call "No Man's Land" . Our motto up here should be "Got squirrel?" I sware to God that my Grandmother has a Northern New York cookbook with a recipe in it for "squirel pot Pie"!

[Sofie]

I... haven't read number 9 yet... *blushes*
<BR>
<BR>But Lisa says he could be! I'll ask her to tell me why she does.

[Judas]

by the way, why cant taim be demondred? i have read the whole series (up to winter's heart)but it has been a while, so, why can't taim be demondred?

[Harun]

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<BR>On 2001-06-13 18:21, Judas wrote:
<BR>by the way, why cant taim be demondred? i have read the whole series (up to winter's heart)but it has been a while, so, why can't taim be demondred?
<BR>
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<BR>
<BR>Reading Winter's Heart makes things clearer. RAFO, as RJ is fond of saying.

[Randal]

I still think Taim is the leading candidate, despite evidence to the contrary in Book 9, but Jacob's theory about Jordan not having made up his mind yet makes a lot of sense. He could very well turn out to be one of those Andoran Lords leading the rebellion against Elayne, for Demandred would love to steal Ilyena Reborn from Lews Therin Reborn.
<BR>
<BR>>);^)~

[Jacob]

Another thought could off course be Roidran (Murandy King) = Demandred. In winters heart (and abit before) it's been mentioned several times how un-Roidranlike it is for him to come up with the kind of scheemes he is now since he's generally known as a very unambitious guy whose favorit pasttime is to drink and chase the ladies. (sounds like Mat:)
<BR>
<BR>Jacob

[GWINNA]

interesting, refresh my memory on who that guy is agian and what he has been doing.

[Judas]

illina reborn?

[Jacob]

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<BR>On 2001-07-08 03:04, G.W.I.N.N.A wrote:
<BR>interesting, refresh my memory on who that guy is agian and what he has been doing.
<BR>
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<BR>
<BR>Roidran = King of Murandy. He's been doing very little. Or rather, he seems to be upto alot, but we've never seen anything from his POV so far. good for "hiding" a forsaken I'd say. Apparently Roidran (known for being very unambitious) is attemting a scheeme to become the first "real" King of Murandy ever. From different charecters POV (our heroes) we've heard that he's playing at the game of houses. Among the things he's doing, he's Hired the Band of the Red hand to march around and appear menecing in order to get the Murandian Lords (and lady's:) to rally to him, "defending" Murandy. Elayn also seem to think that he's got aspirations to use the current troubles to expand Murandy to the west, into Altara. For someone that is supposedly very unambitious, it seems very ambitious indeed to try to not only become Murandy's first real king, but also to expand the realm.
<BR>
<BR>

[GWINNA]

Oh yeah, him!

[Taim]

that might be soo, but other forsaken say that he is close to rand. i am assuming that means he is in the black tower. now there are many people in the black tower were demondred could be. or, he could be in one of the courts(the trick about hiding your ability to channel that mohgidean tought the girls might apply here too.) it still could be taim though, since he was alway's jellous of lews therein, what better way to get back at him than to claim that he is the dragon reborn. and after that failed, he would hate him still farther(every time perrin smelled taim, he smelled anger and hate) so he would want to get closer to him so that it would be easyer to get revenge. what better way to get revenge that by splitting the black tower between rand and him. that way rand dosn't have total conrol over the "hundred companions" this time. he only has the loyalty of a portion. sorry, i just went off, so ummm. take it as you will.

[Jacob]

Yea well...the problem here is that for the (previously popular, now less popular) Taimindred theory to be true, one of two things has to be true:
<BR>
<BR>1. RJ got a nasty blow to his head while writing Winters Heart and forgot that Taim should recognise Flinn.
<BR>
<BR>2. Taim got a nasty blow to his head and got a partial amnesia.
<BR>
<BR>Now, I'm not saying that it's ruled beyond doubt that the Taimandred theory is false. After all, with the kind of violent female characters that RJ write about, these supposedly based on the women in RJ's own life, it might well be that his wife twacks him good in the head on a regular bases <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">
<BR>
<BR>BTW: Seeing your post made me thing of Darius Solluman. Darn but I miss that guy <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">
<BR>

[GWINNA]

All women are violent, its just a matter of to what degree and how much they show it, besides most of the overly nasty ones are evil in RJ's books so he probably threw some plain evil into their charecters.

[Taim]

i think i am going to have to read book nine again! (i started over, rand just beat whats his face, the aiel dude, and now he is coing to the big city "c"

[Jacob]

Rand beat some Aiel guy in Winters Heart?? Man, my copy must be missing some chapters or something! I know that pages have started to fall out (crappy binding!), but I'm sure that there wasn't anything about Rand beating any Aiel guy even when I got it!

[ShadowReaver]

yeah i think i missed that part too. . . .or perhaps that was a reference to an earlier part of the series and he's rereading the WHOLE thing. . .not just book 9. . . .makes more sense. . . .

[Jacob]

Ah, yea....the whole thing and the Aiel Guy would be Couladin...I still give that victory to Mat though. Okay, maybe Mat killing him wasn't the thing that won the whole battle, but Mat killing Couladin was what finally settled it. ~nods~
<BR>That and the fact that I've decided that Mat is my favorit male charecter. I've been told once that I'm alot like him...umm...well, in some ways:)
<BR>
<BR><i>Men want to BE him, women want him</i>
<BR>
<BR>That be me....in part atleast....okay, don't know that many men that want to BE me, and not that many women that want me....but I don't want that many women to want me anyway. One is enough:-)
<BR>

[ShadowReaver]

yeah i hear you on that one Jacob. one is often MORE than one can handle. . . .bloody women. . .you ever hear the saying "never trust something that bleeds for 4 days and doesn't die" my gf corrected it. . ."never piss off something that bleeds for 4 days and doesn't die". . . much more accurate that way. . .

[GWINNA]

Actauly the first way is correct, especialy if your last name is Garrison

[Reuvyn]

Originally posted by Jacob
Yea well...the problem here is that for the (previously popular, now less popular) Taimindred theory to be true, one of two things has to be true:
<BR>
<BR>1. RJ got a nasty blow to his head while writing Winters Heart and forgot that Taim should recognise Flinn.
<BR>
<BR>2. Taim got a nasty blow to his head and got a partial amnesia.
<BR>


Maybe he did know. He just didn't want him to know that he knew. He was pretending he didn't know so he wouldn't figure out the truth.( that he knew) :D :confused:

[Helldude]

I'v decided to give thus thread a new life after KOD, i'm going mad with woundering who demandred could be. We know for sure he is not Taim, we also know for sure he is not in any way associated with the black tower. We can be almost sure he is not close to Rand because then he would know of the black tower. We can perry much rule out Masema becuse Demandred was a military commander and would never let his troops look like that.

Well thats about as far as i have come, so help me out please :)

[4th Dimension]

Maby he is just hanging around SG, preparing Trolocs for LB.

[demonfox]

My thoughts are that he could be one of the Aiel. Most of the other major powers have one of the forsaken somewhere in their midst, from Osan'gar at the black tower, Semirhage with the Seanchan, Mesaana in the White Tower, and Aran'gar with the rebels (the locations of the others escapes me at the moment, if they are known at all)

Yet I find it strange that the Forsaken wouldn't have one of their number among Rand's largest and and most dangerous group of allies.

[Mazrim_Taim]

I agree, that is something to contemplate on.
Do you think perhaps Demandred might have been involved with Couladin, Sevanna and the Shaido? Or some other Aiel group perhaps?
I just think that the second most powerful male forsaken (in my opinion), and one that has never yet had a significant role other than being the DO's messenger to the other forsaken for a time (and with the return of Moridin Demandred does not even attempt to object or try to hold on to his power...), would definitely have some sort of support group by now.
Also, since Rand has moved so many of his forces to Arad Doman, will this create/insue trouble from Graendal, who was last seen there?
What do you guys think? Could Graendal potentially sabatoge that operation? Or do you think her final attack will be more...subtle than that, as it would not be in her character to suddenly come out of hiding and blast people to smithereens. That would be far too cavalier of Graendal. She would do something more, like seduce one of Rand's leading men or something and then create chaos through him.

[demonfox]

I think if he's there he'd be with Rand's group. Graendal and Sammael wouldn't have been playing with the Shaido in my opinion if Demandred was with them


Hmmm, Graendal is an interesting thought. We know that Rand is going to get over his madness, but how? I think Graendal is the one who is going to help him. Semirhage implicated her in being an expert to Rand and the others and Lews Therin in is head is something he needs to resolve. I see Semirage bonded to someone though, perhaps Logain to insure obediance and accurate information.

[Adonis]

I think if he's there he'd be with Rand's group. Graendal and Sammael wouldn't have been playing with the Shaido in my opinion if Demandred was with them


Hmmm, Graendal is an interesting thought. We know that Rand is going to get over his madness, but how? I think Graendal is the one who is going to help him. Semirhage implicated her in being an expert to Rand and the others and Lews Therin in is head is something he needs to resolve. I see Semirage bonded to someone though, perhaps Logain to insure obediance and accurate information.


And You came to that, How? I'm probably missing something here, or I forgot something and I sound like an idiot. :/

[demonfox]

Unless I'm forgetting something from a past book, which is possible, Min had a viewing. I believe it was that he would combine with him, I don't have them on me to go check though

[KA3AK]

Hmmm, Graendal is an interesting thought. We know that Rand is going to get over his madness, but how? I think Graendal is the one who is going to help him. Semirhage implicated her in being an expert to Rand and the others and Lews Therin in is head is something he needs to resolve. I see Semirage bonded to someone though, perhaps Logain to insure obediance and accurate information.
And you believe Semirage why??

[DavidG]

I think if he's there he'd be with Rand's group. Graendal and Sammael wouldn't have been playing with the Shaido in my opinion if Demandred was with themAt least, not if they knew he was with them...

[Byrn]

It's been boldy stated several times that Demandred moves through proxies. Someone close to Rand is reporting to Demmy most likely. ~crosses fingers hoping it's not Verin~

[Shadow Dweller]

I have to say IMHO that Verrin is safe from "Demmy Proxie" speculation. While she does have some odd habits if she was shadowsworn she could have handed rand and crew over all in one swoop earler on in the adventure before Rand and the Wonder Girls had a chance to learn much more than tricks. Also the FAQ gives so much reason for her to NOT be black it's hard to think or argue otherwise.

I think everyone's(or most people's) favorite enigma is safe from the Great Lord.

[Karistina]

It can't be anyone TOO close to Rand or he would know about the Asha'man.

[Tidus]

Could Demondred be with the rebal children of the light or Sylvase Caerens "new secretary" Master Lounalt and judging by the other nobles reactions when treatend with him questioning them he is feared.It's in chapter 33 Nine out of ten,Pg 703(hardback)4th paragraph 3 lines up from the bottom.:D

Also i think Graendal is in Shara because she talks about it in the earlier books(not sure which one).

[Karistina]

Graendal is in Arad Doman pretending to be an old, infirm noblewoman. In this disguise, she met with General Iterulde (sp?), so I have to wonder what she did to him. She Traveled to Shara in order to pick up a few pretties just to throw Sammael (I think) off track as far as her plans were concerned.

[4th Dimension]

Could Demandred be pulling Masema's strings?

Well we know that Samael comented that Demandred is messing in his area (which is acording to that attempted treaty with Rand) From Plains of Moredo to Jehanah and that would include Gheldan. Also Masema met with Seanchan, and we know that indirectly Seanchan was under Semihages control and S is D's closest aly and at that time he was the boss because he was Nai'blis.

But also that reference may be abouty Seanchan which should have landed in Tachiko by that time.

[Karistina]

Since Demandred prefers to use proxies, it's completely plausible that he's been "advising" Masema. The comment about Demandred being responsible for events in the south shouldn't mean anything to do with the Seanchan, since we know that Semhirage was responsible for that. Although that could've been a red herring anyway, as RJ has admitted that the Forsaken are not always correct in their thinking.

[4th Dimension]

Yes but since Semihage is part of that Demi-Meas-Semi alliance I tought if Dem used Masema maby Semihage knew about him also.

[rob423]

From reading RH's blog, the one consistency I have noticed is that people tend to go too deep into a plot than RJ does. Keep the plotlines and intigues mostly simple and you will be nearer the mark most of the time. He has a life other than as a writer so I doubt he spends so much time getting too deep into any thing.

[4th Dimension]

Oh he does. And when you wqant to keep something hiden best way to hide it is to put it in plain site so people should disregard it.
And this Masema-Dem theory is pretty much in plain sight.

Anles Dem has conections with WC, and we know of Pedrons plan to sow haos with false Dragonsworn and blame it on Rand. Not that I think Pedron is DF or anything like that (he was one of my favourite characters) Dem may have ontact with those sowing chaos.

[Crix]

SPOILERS for LOC Onwards:

Hey everyone im back!! sorry i havent posted in ages ... is Dr Dregs, Ka3ak still around? Anyways heres my 2 cents on the Demandred and where he is theory:

Basically i was right about these things so heres some background on my hunches:

I guessed Moridin was Ishamael pretty much the second scene he was in i think when he watched Sammy and Graendal nearly fight ...

I knew Sammy wasnt dead or had this huge hunch he wasnt dead .... (ok we dont know for sure if hes back but i theres a good chance he is... i mean Moridin isnt sure about it which means the Great Lord hasnt told him he got balefired which he would have like when he did with Dem in LOC prologue which also means he DID NOT get balefired and if he got killed it was from the falling building which means he might be alive ... u guys know wat i mean)


Anyways this is what i think about Demandred .... Background first...
Ok out of all the forsaken, Dem and Ish are my favourite.. Now specifically to find out where some1 like Demandred would have placed himself lets examine his char and the scenes he is in .... firstly Char: Dem was a general, uses proxies and thinks of himself as "all but the great lord's heir" and is pretty pissed off atm with Moridin being Naeblis. Now Dem was apparently the 2nd most acclaimed man in the AOL right after good old Lews Therin so that means he picked up chiks, won lots of battles and pretty much thinks he deserved to be commander of forces of light. So Demy was a great general (this is a HUGE clue to where he is) and as a great general you would be easily be able to size up the power of potential armies no matter the setting or age eg. Mat with the seanchan and gunpowder.

Now som1 mentioned earlier that RJ keeps it simple and doesnt go to indepth... well i believe this to be the case and his writing has reflected this especially in recent books esp book 9 on the Taimandred thing. but i believe MR JORDAN has done something brilliant and fooled us all. Listen to this.

After LOC i was 80% sure it Taimandred theory was accurate but wasnt sure coz i figured that would be fairly arrogant of Demy to just rock up to face Rand, it made more sense to me for Dem to SEND taim as it fits with the proxies thing HOWEVER RJ specifically gave us 2 clues to why Taim wasnt actually Dem (the 2 orders that Rochaid and other ashaman talk about and of course in the battle when Demy doesnt recognize Flinn) BUT i think RJ purposely threw in these clues to throw off where Dem is BUT i think we were all right to begin with....

Now what im trying to say is this RJ knew every1 thought D=T so he threw those clues to specifically fool ppl but when u think about where Dem is its pretty simple u look at the current armies that are around and it narrows it down considerably:

Aiel ... Excellent troops with Wise Ones channelling (they r out coz most loyal to Rand and Shaido are f*%$#d NOW)
Seanchan .... Excellent army with lots of diff units + Power used as weapon
Whitecloaks ... Well disciplined but poor against others coz No Power
Dragonsworn ... Pathetic group of fools who would get annihilated
Black Tower .... 100 men together could take out ten times that of the other armies and yes ive considered channellers in the other side

So to me that narrows it down to either the Seanchan or the BT. Now it makes sense if its the Seanchan coz of the Dem,Sem,Mes Alliance BUT heres my final thoughts:

Now lets go to Taim. This guy is bloody arrogant and man the more i read about him, the more like a Chosen i see him as. I mean either he is the newest Chosen (11 chairs in Forsaken meeting), or Demandred's 2nd in command, or he is Demandred and as for that not recognizing Flinn, Taim has trained 100s of Ashaman, Flinn was 1 of first few to go to Rand so its easily possible for Taim/Dem? to forget him and as for the Taim and Demandred giving orders he could have done so to cover his tracks or he's using Taim as a proxie but if Taim is a proxie man he is some kind of proxie (read the epilogue of KOD and Taim says EXACTLY what the Great lord tells Demandred so either its him or his boss)

Ok i know this argument has gone on for ages BUT im more sure about it the more i read did (especially considering KOD, WH, and LOC) and that is Taim=Dem or Dem is Taim's boss and when i hear about Taim being in Masema's lot or being Weiramon it just doesnt make sense ... i think Sammael was irrational blaming Dem for 'évents in the south'

Also this is ironic but Taim is the supposed ''M'hael" which means he is leader or something BUT he is 2nd in rank to Rand which is so bloody ironic and obvious its not funny and it fits Dem's personality to a tee

My 2 cents


ps. how is every1?

[4th Dimension]

1. Demandred ain't Taim RJ sai it himself.
2. Demandred idn't even recognise Ashaman outfit. And Dammer wasnt just some random ashaman. He was the first one and pretty dam strong so Taim is shure to remember him.
3. If Demandred didn't recognise Ashaman outfit or them, it is less likely that Taim is under his command. Also why would he order some A'm and then let Taim order same?

[Crix]

Alright point conceded. Dem is NOT Taim if RJ said it himself. But i think Demandred has placed himself as Taim's new boss for sure. If Taim was so high ranked and a new chosen, HE WOULD HAVE been in the Forsaken Meeting and I know Demandred's character, hes a person who allies or affiliates himself with POWERFUL things and the Ashamán are probably the powerfulest group in Randland ... As for the ordering bulls&#$t ... Moridin gave the chosen specific orders so it makes sense to me that the chosen would give all the important darkfreinds specific orders even if other darkfreinds could easily do so eg. Taim and Ashaman ..... JUST TO MAKE SURE THE ORDERS WERE PASSED THRU THIS 1 time ....

[4th Dimension]

Don't you think BT would be a bit overcrowded if there was also Demandred inwolved. I mean, Aignor was there as Dashiva, we got Taim, a either high ranking Dreadlord or even new and secret Chosen, and on top of that Demandred. Considering how protective over their zones of influence Forsaken are I wonder how BT didn't explode in riots yet.

There is a much simpler explanation where Dem is. He is in Blight readying his plans for TG. After all now that Sammael is gone he's the only and best Shadow's commander.

[Crix]

4th Dimension I think your probably right though i still think hes related with the BT. Osangar WAS scared of Demandred and they mention if not for his particular skills he would never have been Chosen and so im not preturbed of Demandred being the puppetmaster of the Ashaman. Yes i strongly agree with you SOME of the chosen are very territorial BUT definately NOT Aginor/Osangar. What of Demandred you say? Well if u recall when in WH they are all argueing Grandael explodes by saying that Demandred AND Osangar were charged with watching Rand so i think in this particular case, the DO has given specific orders via Shaidar Haran for Osangar to infiltrate the BT against the personal wishes of Demandred (at the end of PoD when Taim gets angry when he realizes Dashiva was part of the plot to assassinate Rand)

any thoughts?

[4th Dimension]

Well some things do not fit.
1. F couln't have known that Rand would chose Dashiva to acompany him. In fact Mazrim Taim recomended some of his "circle". So it is unlikely that they planed to watch Rand in that way. I think original plan was that Asangar should observe and guide rebel AS and Osan'gar was soppoused to gain rank and probably to take part in splitting the BT, while him would associate with one part and MT probably with other.
2. Even somebody of so low rank as Osan'gar woul defend his teritory, Asan'gar showed it in trying to stand up to Measana.
...

I don't know. MAby it's my stubornes but it's simply too much compliated.
There are too many possible solutions to this ridle.
Now does anyone remember how Osan'gar came to BT. Was he recruted wia a part and then Traveled to BT (in which case it was organised for Dashiva to arive there and MT knew him) or he just showed up there.

[Dragon Man]

One more reason D does not = T (other than RJ saying so) is a quote from the book where the A'm go after Rand:

Mazrim Taim sat in his Black Tower study. Kill him, Demandred had said

I have no idea how you ppl missed that.

EDIT: Obviously there's more to that quote, but we don't need much more ;)

[Crix]

Can you please find that quote? Like which book and page number? I recall Rochaid thinking about Taim AND Demandred giving the same order BUT i definately do not recall a POV by Taim ......

[rob423]

It was just a part in Kisman's POV when he remembers all the ppl who ordered him to kill Rand. He remembered the M'Hael telling him, Demandred also telling him, and I think Moridin telling him. Since Kisman met Demandred and Taim, and did not think of them as the same person this is extremely strong evidence (conclusive in my eyes) that Taim and Demandred can not be the same person.


Edit: The quote can be found in Winter's Heart, Out of Thin Air , pg509-510 paperback.

[4th Dimension]

No I don't think Mordin participated in that. Just Taim and Dem.

[rob423]

Read it.....Moridin did tell him to kill Rand, only he wanted the items Rand had more than he wanted Rand killed.

[Crix]

yes rob423 is right, Kisman's POV does state he got orders from Taim, Dem, AND Moridin to kill Rand and yes again Moridin was the final orderer so basically to the reader u can see the chain of command high ranked darkfreind/new chosen, high ranked Chosen, Naeb'lis ......... but i dont know guys ive got a hunch Demandred is with the BT, ill concede that hes NOT Taim at least if bloody RJ reckons he is anyways....

[4th Dimension]

Do you mean, commanding TAim or operating, or actualy living there

[Alucard]

There is simply not enough evidence yet to know where Demandred is, he could literally be anywhere. He could be with the Seanchan, Aiel, Whitecloaks. There is no evidence to say he isn't with one of these groups. We are just gonna have to wait and see, if I'm wrong with saying there isn't any evidence for these groups please show me it.

[Crix]

I mean Taim is one of his proxies im sure of it .... especially since Taim say's the quote "Let the lord of chaos rule" which the Great Lord said to Dem in Shayol Ghul ..... and yes Alucard this isnt my EVIDENCE but *sigh* we have only very few clues to where he is which is scattered throughout the books but i think the best clue is at the end of Lord of Chaos when Demandred says to the Great Lord, are you not pleased with what ive done? and the DO laughs etc etc. Now theres no mention of the Seanchan Empire or Whitecloaks, the only significant thing that happens in LOC is the friggin Ashaman .... this is the clue im sticking to .... and remember this people .... CRIX said Demandred was with Ashaman, if im right u all owe me a beer!!!

[Alucard]

Yeah I would definately agree with the fact that Taim is Demandreds proxie, but that still means nothing on the position of Demandred.

Edit: That only shows that he is controlling the Black Tower through Taim though not that he actually is at the Black Tower, also because of the obscure timelines that RJ uses Demandred could have been talking about anything that happened in any of the previous 5 books as well. For all we know he could of disguised himself as Bashere. But yes the whole Black Tower thing has the most overwhelming evidence of all, but it still isn't enough.

[Crix]

Yes i agree on his whereabouts, there hasnt been a clue to where he is. The only thing resembling a clue is Sammy's outburst at Events to the south having Demandred's mark all over them still that doesnt prove a thing ... sammael was an idiot period. My guess is from Demandred's persona he doesnt have a fixed location but moves mostly between Telaranrhiod, SG, BT, the Seanchan Empire ........ on a side note u think Osangar might be ressurected before the last battle or is it too late for that?

[Tidus]

I have more evidence that Taim IS a proxie,to Dem.We all know that Taim has his Secret Lessons and about 100 Asha'men loyal to him(we learn this from Logain)we also know that Taim has considerable knowlege of the power and because of this there was a theory that he came from a statis box,this could be true because we all know the Forsaken are serching for statis boxes...so,saying Dem found Taim in a statis box is possible,though i personally think Dem is teaching Taim and if he is teaching him then that can explain alot and it would also prove that Dem is controling Taim.

[4th Dimension]

Well officialy theory is that Taim recived his lessions from Ishmael, but spent a LOT of time around Dem.

Osan'gar?
No chance. DO doesnt give a third chance (except maby he would do that only for Ishy).

[Crix]

Yea but i think he would, i just dont think we have the time before the last battle for Osangar to come back. The DO needs all the Chosen he can get. Osangar's failure could just mean demotion or Mind Trap for Extra Obedience like in Moghedien's case. think about it Moghedien's failure is 10 times worse than Osangar's or any chosen that die. She taught the good side a lot of weaves which basically even it out when originally they had no frigging chance whereas Osangar and Ishamael died trying to further the cause ....

[4th Dimension]

Do does need Chosen. But he needs careful, deidcated, obidient and strong enough Chosen. And Aignor died TWO times. Once he officialy burned himself out, and second time he was killed by some untrained children. Aignor would never have become Chosen (he himself admits that) had it not been for his discoveries (Shadowspawn), and in this age without labatories he is pretty usless. Beter not bring him back because he will again screw things up, and his will be a reminder to other chosen not to get kille stupidely.

[Asha'man Joe]

I'd say Demandred is definitely pulling Taim's strings, in order to have an Asha'man contingent on the side of the DO at TG- however, these will not 'openly' be DO fans, but rather only against Rand. I'd say Demandred is in the Blight organising the troops...

[Genesis 1.0]

I think that Taim is Halwin Norry.................

But seriously, Sammael said events in the South, well assmuning he speaking from Illian's P.O.V. and the fact that he didn't know Elyane on sight, gives an insanely frustrating puzzle. A Tinker? I would have said Eamon Valda, certainly arrogant enough, but he's dust. Perhaps both he and Sem were in the Seanchan lot? Or maybe Shara????

[Asha'man Joe]

Definitely hard to say, since RJ seems to be making things up as he goes- I think that whether he said Taim was Demandred or not is actually irrelevent. Perhaps he was surprised that fans worked it out so easily and then decided to change it on the spur of the moment, who knows? Perhaps he said that as Red Herring, or he may even decide to do it anyway if it fits the story better. I get the impression that often the ambiguous disclaimers he gives himself are so that eh can do what he likes, disclaimers such as 'well, he's forsaken, of course he would have lied eight novels ago when he said that' etc etc.

[Genesis 1.0]

I still say Halwin Norry or maybe Sebban Bawler, nobody can be THAT dry without the Power.

[4th Dimension]

For some time I tought Dem was Roderan, that wanabe Murandian king. Because there is a sudden change in his atitude. Everybody described him if I remember as an idiot. But suddenly Roderan is the expert for plots, and makes a very good plan.
And after all Murandy is to north of the Ilian and Sammael might have at it.

[Tidus]

Nah i think Dem is up in the blight, and i also think RJ knows people are still guessing where he is, so he keeps dropping leads and hints to something that we believe to be like Dems character, but in reality isn't.

[Genesis 1.0]

When they first introduced Demandred in the story and described him they said he had a hooked nose and slightly tilted eyes, typical of a particular Boderland that a certain False Dragon comes from and we're told it isn't him. Meh, Bashere maybe? He's certainly fearless enough and not fazed by Rand at all.

[Tidus]

How would he know about Faile, and i'm sure his wife would notice a change in personality, i don't think it's bashere at all.

[Genesis 1.0]

Complusion, easy way to cover Deira and I'never seen him somwhere when Demandred was, if RJ goes for a shocker it'll be who you least expect. Also, I don't think he'd put in the descrition of him fitting a Saldean for nothing.

[4th Dimension]

No, Davram is a typical Saladean. They fear nothing and nothing fazes them except their wifes.

And if Davram is Dem, Deira is Semi :D

[Genesis 1.0]

Bashere certainly was afraid when Rand was facing the Seanchan and ended up killing a nice chunk of his men. Shaken to his boots then.

lol, laugh if you will, I've seen more insane therories than this one.

[Tidus]

Yes and like this one, they have been thoroughly bashed.:D

Though if RJ was going for a shocker, Bashere would be good, but i don't think readers would like that turn in things, i know i wouldn't.

[4th Dimension]

Yeah we like bashing theories. We don't like submiting theories byourselfs but we know how to bash.
We are something like literay critics. We may have never writen anything but that doesn't stop us from fiding and mocking even the smallest mustakes by the author.

[Tidus]

Speaking of mistakes i noticed a major one yesterday. Ok we know in AoL they spoke a different language to what they speak now, so how did the Forsaken, who were trapped in the bore since then, come out of the bore speaking the language now, which is different, and even the forsaken are human there is no way they could have learned a new language that fast. Also we know the Aiel went over the Dragonwall, well before the language changed, and we know they only came out during the Aiel war, so how come they also speak the common language?

If this was a real thing they each should be speaking a different language, yes.

[4th Dimension]

Well couple of times they said that todays language is primitive compared to their (Old Tongue), so I soppouse the learned fast. Maby DO inserted that knowlege.

[Tidus]

Like i understand Ishi knowing, cause he wasn't fully traped, but i suppose the DO could have taken Ishi knowledge and gave it to the others, but it still doesn't explain the Aiel. Also Shara, if they turn out to speak the same language aswell, you can fuck off, theres no way it could be possible.

[Genesis 1.0]

I think that what the people of the current Age speak now is a lower form from the AoL, perhaps those used by the dregs of society, a siphon from what they spoke and easily adapted.

[4th Dimension]

I sad it before. Aiel were linke to the wetlanders by books. Aiel do use more phrases of OT than usual but they couldn't remain OT speaking because they ar adicted to books (and killing) so when books in normal tongue started appearing they changed their language as well.

[Tidus]

Good point, but if Shara turns out to speak the same language i'll flip and don't give me trade with the Sea Folk, made them change there language thats just bullshit, it would be the Sea Folk who learned there language not the other way round.

[4th Dimension]

Well knowing how they keep to themselfs I think they wouldn't want for anybody to know their language.
Probably merchants know New Tongue which is spoken in wetlands-Aiel waste

[galad2003]

Wow, I tried reading the whole thread, but its pretty long, so i just skimmed it. After reading KoD i have to say Demandred is Taim.

[rob423]

Wow, I tried reading the whole thread, but its pretty long, so i just skimmed it. After reading KoD i have to say Demandred is Taim.


lol, oh no! do we have to go thru this again? Demandred is NOT Taim. Look thru this forum for threads about Demandred and you will see.

[4th Dimension]

If I see another Taimendred theory, I swear I'll ...
I'll...
I'll...
I'll eat my computer and then I couldn't come on this forum and then without me you would get bored and this subforum would die and ten feet high layer of dust would cover him until my computer gets reborn and I come again and by that filfil the phrophesy that 4th Dimension will come again and revive theories section.
You wouldn't like that to happen, now would you? :D

[Crix]

Well all i can say is RJ knows that this theory has been around for ages. ... all i hope is he reveals who it is in the next book ....

[Tidus]

If I see another Taimendred theory, I swear I'll ...
I'll...
I'll...
I'll eat my computer and then I couldn't come on this forum and then without me you would get bored and this subforum would die and ten feet high layer of dust would cover him until my computer gets reborn and I come again and by that filfil the phrophesy that 4th Dimension will come again and revive theories section.
You wouldn't like that to happen, now would you? :D

4Th, me and Crix would never let it die. How could you say such a thing!:D

[DavidG]

I'm thinking of starting a "Demandred is Bashere/Masema/Elaida/Olver/a horse/on the moon" rumour just to stop this sort of thing...

[Genesis 1.0]

You know, Seandar is probably as far south as you can get and maybe he and Sem were in the same continent, given their alliance. When he came back from Shayol he said that maybe the Great Lord had planned this all along considering where she'd placed herself. Seeing that the Seanchan came out of nowhere right about the time all Hell broke loose.

The connection here is that every Seanchan seems dedicated to the Empress without doubt and speak of being in her presence and suddenly having a thirst to serve and please. Not your typical ruler, and it sounds LOT like Compulsion to me. Perhaps Deman is somewhere in the Court of the Nine Moons and manipulating events there and spreading chaos (death of the Empress) from that angle? No one there would know he could channel or detect it, and since Rahvin just popped up out thin air and became powerful by duping a ruler, also like Samm and Belal, why not Deman?

[digeon83]

as far as i know the dedication to the empress stems frm the crystal throne being a terangreal that fills people with love and devotion for the person sitting in it

[Tidus]

No offense, but i think you just made that up, there is no evidense at all to back that and no mention of even a hint to make it true, BUT if you can show me evidense, i'll take back what i just said.

[digeon83]

it says it in wikipedia and in encyclopedia WoT but i think they are getting it from the guide

[DavidG]

It's mentioned in WoWoT, too. It's pretty well known that the crystal throne is a ter'angreal.

[Tidus]

Well i don't read these other sources, i'm going by what evidence comes out of the book, it's the only primary source, everything else is secondry, therefore it's not proven that the crystal throne is Ter'Angreal, it probably is, but until it's said so no evidense.:2eyes:

[Genesis 1.0]

But what does it need in order to work? They have many triggers and if they was one with this particular ability, Demandred could be pulling the strings since he loves proxies.

[DavidG]

Well i don't read these other sources, i'm going by what evidence comes out of the book, it's the only primary source, everything else is secondry, therefore it's not proven that the crystal throne is Ter'Angreal, it probably is, but until it's said so no evidense.:2eyes:Well, RJ wrote WoWoT, so I'd consider it to be reasonably primary... admittedly it has a few deliberate mistakes, though. But I don't think this is one of them.

But what does it need in order to work? They have many triggers and if they was one with this particular ability, Demandred could be pulling the strings since he loves proxies.As far as I could tell from the info in the book, it's constantly operating. Which makes sense to me - bearing in mind that most people in Seanchan don't even know what it really is, I doubt they'd have damane operating it, and it was in use long before the Forsaken were released...

[4th Dimension]

And Seandar is not that much to the south
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/Blazo4D/map-seanchan.jpg
http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/8859/mapworld1dl.jpg
It's nearly in the line to the Ilian (The City)

[Tidus]

Ok Four things:1)Cool map.:)
2)It's more in line with south Shara, then Illian, as a matter of fact Randland, is only in line with north Seanchan.
3)It's connected to the blight, so that meanstrolloc armies can attack there aswell, and you can travel there by land, which could be useful.
4)Land of Madmen, please don't tell me thats a land controled by male channelers, if it is they have got to come into play next book.

And lastly, do you rekon Seanchan has a blightborder, or is that part of the blight to far away from shayol ghul, to be affected?

[FortyFiveAuto]

do you rekon Seanchan has a blightborder, or is that part of the blight to far away from shayol ghul, to be affected?

It really is not that far away from Shayol Ghul.

The map is depicting a round world. Take a look at the northwest and northeast portions of the world map. What would be the 3rd Age Bering Strait area of the world connects the two major landmasses by a comparatively short distance, in contrast to the distance between them across the Aryth Ocean.

Also consider that the Blight in the Western Hemisphere is only connected to the Imfaral portion of the Seanchan continent. Last I heard, Shadowspawn were not much for seafaring, so probably Seandar is not very affected by them.

Shadowspawn in those parts probably have locals to worry about, too, much like they worry about the Aiel in the East. Furyk Karede's manservant Ajimbura seemed like one crazy guy, and there are hordes of people just like him, and if the Kaensada Hills are anywhere near the Blight, they probably fight Trollocs and Myrddraal on a regular basis.

[4th Dimension]

Didn't I allready explain about The Land of MAdmen?
No?
Well here it goes agan.
Approximately equidistant from Seanchan's borders and roughly south of our land across the Sea of Storms is the third continent. Nameless, except to its inhabitants, it was discovered by the Sea Folk, who call it "the Land of the Madmen" and do their best to avoid it. Until this publication, they were the only ones even aware of its existence. The Sea Folk have not even tried to chart its shoreline, though they do state that the continent is approximately seven hundred and fifty leagues across and five hundred leagues from north to south, with its southern coast extending to within five hundred miles of the southern icecap.

Many active volcanoes are located along the coastline, easily visible from the sea. Earthquakes and large storms are common in these seas, and icebergs are a constant danger to any ships that travel far south of the northern edge of the continent, possibly owing to the numerous earthquakes cracking the edge of the icecap.

The Sea Folk tell fearsome tales of those who chanced to go ashore on the Land of the Madmen and made it back to their ships. The natives apparently never recovered from the Breaking, and never managed to reestablish order of any kind. The people are reported to live in wretched hovels in small, primitive villages. Any foreigner runs the risk of encountering channelers of either sex. The male channelers are frequently insane, of course, due to the taint, but the women are just as dangerous and unpredictable. If the stranger meets no channelers, he is simply overwhelmed by a mob of villagers who attempt to kill on sight anyone unknown to them. There seems no possibility of peaceful contact.

[Tidus]

Amazing, i just thought of something that would make a killer chapter in the next book. The Black Tower and the White Tower Travel to that Island, and have a huge Channeler battle. Twould be cool.:cool:

[Crix]

It makes you wonder how those channellers havent caused another breaking yet

[Tidus]

Well they are all probable crap channelers, because it sounds like it's always a contest for power, so no one will teach another for fear of them betraying you, so they probably only use self trained tricks, that aren't strong enough to break the world, or it could be that they are all real weak in the power.:)

[Tidus]

Sorry for the double post.

It also could be thats because the channelers kill each other so much, there isn't enough channelers to effect the rest of the world, they just ruin there own island. I wonder if Jain Farstrider ever went there.

[Crix]

Well they are all probable crap channelers, because it sounds like it's always a contest for power, so no one will teach another for fear of them betraying you, so they probably only use self trained tricks, that aren't strong enough to break the world, or it could be that they are all real weak in the power.:)

I dont think they are not powerful enough BUT i think maybe they lost a lot of knowledge and just dont KNOW enough to do another breaking maybe? So i agree with your last statement but disagree with the first one :cool:

[Tidus]

You mean you agree with my first statement about them not teaching each other, and disagree with my last about them being weak.:)

You kinda got mixed up there, so what do you think? Do you think Jain Farstrider has ever been there, he has seemed to have been everywere else.

Also, it would make a cool chapter if Rand made all those renegade channelers on the island serve him.

[4th Dimension]

Well They are pretty far away and for breaking you would need chanalers all over the world. But their island is kinda unnatural. Remember all thore volanoes. I don't think all of them are that old. Maby some of them were produced during some of power strugles.

[DavidG]

Well, the LoM is the smallest surviving continent (looks to me like Europe and Africa were destroyed during the Breaking...), so I'd guess that there simply aren't enough channelers to do too much harm.

[Crix]

You mean you agree with my first statement about them not teaching each other, and disagree with my last about them being weak.:)

You kinda got mixed up there, so what do you think? Do you think Jain Farstrider has ever been there, he has seemed to have been everywere else.

Also, it would make a cool chapter if Rand made all those renegade channelers on the island serve him.


Yea your right lol .... Well i disagree that they would be weak. But i like your idea of them being paranoid and killing each other on sight. But what doesnt make sense in that theory is the fact there still is people around alive. I would have thought in 3 thousand years of this they would all be dead if that happend. My theory is there are chanellers and non chanellers villages. In other words, chanellers when discovered are either killed or driven off. And these people then try to find others like them tyring to learn by themselves and either die or manage to learn and go insane in a few years. I wonder whats gonna happen now that taint is no more. Im guessing it will remain much the same....

[Tidus]

You raise an interesting point. Here me out. Those Male channelers to far gone are insane but forget about them for a sec, the only reason i can see that women channelers rained supreme so far is because all the male eventually go mad, but not anymore, the male channelers will start killing the female one at a time, but this will lead to circuls so in the song run it will be femals against males, which might eventually lead to an agrement, which will then lead to order.This will probablt take about 1000 years, but it will eventually happen.

[4th Dimension]

They are probably leading factions. A groop of chanalers gathers and fights together untill it is in their interest to do so.
Remember Seanchan before the invasion of Arturs son.

[Tidus]

Yes, good point, but Seanchan seemed more in control of itself then LoM.

[Darius Sei'taer]

Yeah I love sex and rock n roll

[4th Dimension]

So you are an oldie and you have some back to sow confusion among us, now have you?

[Tidus]

Don't mind him 4th, just ignore any posts of his, that are just spam.

[4th Dimension]

But only I can spam.
At least when I spam I say something relativly connected to the toppic.

Looks up on the post.

Well usualy... :D

[Tidus]

Couldn't find the thread where we talked about Olver being Gaidel, but i'm re-reading tFoH, and i came across a sentense that Birgitte said to Elayne after she was ripped from Tel'Aran'Rhiod by Moggy, she said her love(Gaidel) would be an infant OR a young boy.

Those two words alone back up all the evidense that points to Olver being Gaidel.

By the way, sorry for posting in the irrelevent thread, but as i said, i couldn't find the proper one.

[rob423]

She was referring to the difference in time's passing in Tel'. Time can still not flow backwards. It would have to flow backwards for Gaidel to be Olver as we saw Olver as a young boy, then later saw Gaidel in Tel' hovering around Bridgitte. Your beating a dead horse

[Tidus]

Ehh

then later saw Gaidel in Tel' hovering around Bridgitte.

we never see anything og gaidel after birgitte is torn from Tel', so that statement isin't true. therefore i'm not "beating a dead horse"

[digeon83]

It would have to flow backwards for Gaidel to be Olver as we saw Olver as a young boy, then later saw Gaidel in Tel' hovering around Bridgitte.

we met Olver after Birgitte is torn out, so that is not true.

[rob423]

OK, let me explain this and hope you can connect the logic.

The timeline set in the book is firm, nothing we have seen allows anyone to go back in time except thru "visions" of the past.

Olver is a lad when Mat meets him. No one has aged rapidly several years from their being in Tel', actually no one seems to have aged any differently than normal judging from what the books have shown us. Therefore, Olver was born several years BEFORE the beginning of the first book.
We know Gaidel Cain was with Bridgette in Tel' after the birth of Olver from the scene in one of the books. The fact that we see Gaidel Cain in Tel' in any of the books removes him from being considered anyone but a newborn or infant shortly thereafter, yet Olver is 9 or 10 years old.

[4th Dimension]

We have discused this several times and allways more people come and hook themselfs on that that T'a'r time is not the same in the real world.
As rob423 siad, Gidal was in T'a'r in TSR so he could only be a one year old child now.

[Tidus]

0-3 are considered infents 3-6 would be considered a young boy, and Olver is about 8 or 9 so if he was a young boy, it's very possible that it could be Olver. Think about it Olver is introduced in the 9-10th book, ans there is at least a two year gap between the books, we know this because of all the traveling, i'm not backing down on this, i know i'm right. it is very possible Olver could be Gaidel.

[rob423]

I'm pretty sure RJ has said straight out that Olver is not Cain.

The 2-3 years is not "between books" it is TOTAL time passed since the beginning of the first book. If Olver were 3 yrs old in KOD, you would be pushing the timeline, but there would be a small chance he could be Gaidel Cain. As he is 9-10 yrs old in KOD, there's not a chance in hell that he could be Cain.

[4th Dimension]

Here, It's all explained. And there is a quote from RJ where he says Oliver aint GC http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/2_nondark/2.2_rest-chars/2.2.5_gaidal.html

[Shintaro]

I think RJ made another mistake. Think about it, Taim was all set up to be Demandred - then RJ freaks out and changes it, despite the fact that its blatantly obvious his initial plans were Taim=Demandred.

I believe he had set up Olver as GC, but again realised it can't work and can hardly edit previous books so he just leaves it.

[Heartsbane]

Shouldn't Olver also begin to show signs of being like an awesome blademaster prodigy?

[Tidus]

So if Olver isin't Gaidel, then as RJ said:
He has another reason for being there

I think that means he is the third to go with Mat and Thom, like i predicted before, he wouldn't be put in for no reason and if he ain't Gaidel that has to be the reason, cause Noel provides advice and will probably help Mat out again against the Gholem. Man it's been awhile since a good theory debate has come up.:D

[4th Dimension]

I think Olivers reason was to provide Mat with the info on how to enter TG. And to provide some aditional rules

[Albanianwolfe]

demandred=mazrim taim?

[digeon83]

ok buddy, please read the other threads, there is one dedicated to that theory, and you could spend several hours reading through it.

[Albanianwolfe]

olver=GC guaranteed, logic be damned, a reason will be found
mazrim taim = demandred guaranteed, no one else

[digeon83]

aright, I'm done with this, don't be surprised if you get rocked by 4th dimension or Tidus.

[Albanianwolfe]

Only two more books to the series, expect resolution as opposed to plot twists

[digeon83]

1 more book

[4th Dimension]

You might as well start running now.

Oliver can't be GC because
1) RJ said he aint'.
2) The timing is wrong. GC desapeard from T'a'R maby a year ago and Oliver is what 8-9 years old. It's not possible except if you think he might have reached that age in 1 year. And don't even mention T'a'R time. Time there is screwed but can't run backwards.

Taim ain't Demandred because:
1)Again RJ said so, and that's it.
2)In book 9 Dem didn't even recognise Asha'mans. Orders to kill Rand were given my MT and Demandred separatly. They obviusly weren't aware of each other. And if you base your theory on LTT's rants, well LTT is nuts. He says even for those A'm that follow him that he must KILL THEM KILLL THEM ALLL

Tidius will add if I missed smething.

[Tidus]

Do not forget that another Forsaken was at the BT, and we all know how they feel towards each other, no Dem wouldn't stand for another Forsaken being on his turf, so sorry Mazrim Taim is just someone else with a similar agenda. As for Olver=GD i thought the same, but recent developements have lead me to believe otherwise.

[4th Dimension]

So you still belive Oliver=GC???

[Tidus]

but recent developements have lead me to believe otherwise.

No i bloody well don't.:D