True BladeMaster

[magatsu17]

We all know that Rand,Gawn,Galad, and Lan are the best swordfighters in the series.

Who do you think is the best?

I say Galad, I think one of his main porposes in the series is to be the best swordfighter, plus we get a demonstration of this in book 5,
Galad's just the Man.

This is just swordfighters, so don't jump on me about Mat, he doesn't even own a sword.

[Mesaana]

I dunno I think Lan would be.. he has more experience and Galad is such a pretty boy, personally I think he's in for an ass whooping sometime soon. Anyhow... Lan is the better blademaster... more experience and wouldn't be afraid of anything. Galad just needs a few earthshattering experiences to get himself up there with Lan.

[Archbishop]

Lan is the best. Period.

However, for completeness, you might think about adding Tam to the list. He did earn his heron mark after all.

[Jacob]

Blade master against blade master, I say Lan. Since it's all really fiction, the answer to this can only be told by RJ's "pen" of course. You did mention The Fires of Heaven and certainly, Galad was just about as kickarse as can be in that book, leaving even the seasoned Shienarans gaping abit. But I think that fighting a whole bunch of people armed with pitchforks and axes etc. is quite different from fighting against just one very skilled fighter. I also have this image of Galad's honour getting in the way. I.e. he'd let an enemy regain his feet if he stumbled on a root and fell flat on his face, Lan would just run his enemy through the back in the same situation and he's the more experienced.

And why not count in Mat because he doesn't use a sword? His Ashan'darei has got a BLADE, right? :) Mat, if anyone is the man! I also think that he's got an advantage through being familiar with his oponents weapons while his oponents aren't familiar with his. You practice martial arts I take it from what your profile says etc? For someone right handed it can often be abit more difficult to face someone left handed than vise versa and I think that this is the same principle, only more so.

P.S. Did you forget to vote in your own poll?? D.S.

[Mann]

It's gotta be Lan, 'cause remember that Galad has all that natural talent, but Gawyn trains that much harder to get to a comparable level. We don't know how good Tam is (yet, maybee), and Rand is still (theoretically) Lan's pupil. However; Rand trains damn hard, and has bags of natural talent; whilst being trained under strenuos conditions by the best. LTT was also the greatest swordsman of his day. If Lan ever reunites (or Tam) he'll gain some kick ass instructors. This leads me to believe that he'll end up fighting (and beating) Galad (his sibling) later on. It's also possible that he'll recover from those debilitating injuries in his side at some point, improving his agility and stamina. Although it's unlikely.

[magatsu17]

YP.S. Did you forget to vote in your own poll?? D.S. Yes I did for get to vote on my own poll, but I rectified that. :D
However, for completeness, you might think about adding Tam to the list. He did earn his heron mark after all
Tam, while he became a blade master and normally I would include him, he went 20 years with out even picking up a sword. I don't think he has the skills to compete with any of these four.
I mean Aram was pressing him a month after picking up the sword.

Also expierence seems of little acount in the WOT. Just look at Gawn who defeated two of his teachers, both were more experience and blademasters to boot, but were no match for Gawn.

While Mat has the coolest weapon, I'm just going by swordfighters. Else you would have to give Rhuarc his due as well. Also Sulin who I think is the baddest fighter amoung the Maidens,

Also who would win in an archery contest between Tam, Rand, and Birgitte. I say Rand, for the simple fact that what he did in book two is the finest display of archery in the whole series so far.

he has more experience and Galad is such a pretty boy, personally I think he's in for an ass whooping sometime soon.

The thing about Galad is that he's not a pretty boy, he's just happens look good. I know that Galad doesn't spend all this time try to look good, he just happen to look that way. Also when the girls do swoon at him, it doesn't effect him at all. He doesn't enjoy the attention. He probly doesn't even notice it.

Speaking of Galad, I thought it was cool to see that conection with him and Rand. I mean they are half brothers, and while it's never mentioned in the books, I would like to see them get together and here Galad talk about Tigraine to Rand.

Also has anyone ever noticed that Rand never looked for his family amoung the Aiel. I'm sure he has some uncle's or aunts or cousins or something out there still alive.

[TimGoldenboots]

When Lan was first discussing becoming a Bladesmaster with Rand, he told him it would take 5 years if he never made the same mistake twice. The only one we even saw start to maintain that kind of pace was Galad, but he left his studies. It has been about 2-3 years since Rand first picked up a sword.

I am not saying you need to be a bladesmaster to beat a bladesmaster. That is obvoiusly not the case since Gawyn defeated several including his own teacher during the Tower coup. I think being a blades master just means knowing how to perform all of the forms flawlesly. That would explain how Tam got stabbed by a trolloc. None of the afore mentioned had a problem with anything less than a fade.

As far as rating them it is difacult to compare. We know that when Galad became a whitecloak he was much better at teh sword than Gawyn. Gawyn, as I mentioned, killed several Warders & bladesmasters making him pretty dangerous by himself. Rand is at least as good a Gawyn, having killed a few warders himself, but he WAS getting his ass beat by that Toram fellow & Land made fairly quick work of him.

Lan and Tam are both Bladesmasters, but none of the others are. Since we didn't get a chance to see Tam in his prime, it isn't really fair to include him with this. I am sure he is a competent teacher, Aram is proof of that. But Lan & Galad are naturals with the sword. That have a tallent that gives them an edge over the others mentioned here. It would be a historic fight between them, but I would put my money on Lan because Galad is above fighting a little dirty and Lan isn't.

I don't believe that Rand, Gawyn or Aram are in the Lan/Galad ability, but they all have similar experience. Agan it would likely take a fight to straighten out exactly who is the better, but Rand has more experience followed by Gawyn then Aram. So for sheer knolledge of the sword it should be Rand/Gawyn/Aram.

Of course Rand could kill them all Saidin so I don't really care who is better with the Sword.

[magatsu17]

Rand also has the name natural ability with the sword that Galad has.

I think proof of this is all through the series, In book one even when hadn't really had that much training, Garth Bryne say's one of my favorite lines in the series"Look at his eyes. Look at how he stands. How the sword fits him and he it. He is too young but the sword is his." This shows some of his natural ability.

In book two after just a month of training with Lan, Rand makes short work of trollocs, 3 or 4 at a time. Also he defeats his a blademaster.

Rand has the same natural ability as Galad I think

I think your right though, Blademaster might be a Title given to some one who knows all the forms, it might be like a certification as a teacher or something the like.

[Malcor Sylverwood]

3. I agree that Rand probably has as much talent as the others, but he only just started training and he has one or two other things on his mind...

2. Galad is the natural...what he lacks in experience he makes up in intensity.

1. Sorry, I have to go with the obvious choice: Lan. Has lived the life of a true warrior and gains the benefits of being a Warder.

A duel between Galad and Lan would be a sight to behold....

PS. None of them could match Drizzt tho...hehehe

[magatsu17]

Originally posted by Malcor S
3. I agree that Rand probably has as much talent as the others, but he only just started training and he has one or two other things on his mind...

2. Galad is the natural...what he lacks in experience he makes up in intensity.

1. Sorry, I have to go with the obvious choice: Lan. Has lived the life of a true warrior and gains the benefits of being a Warder.

A duel between Galad and Lan would be a sight to behold....

PS. None of them could match Drizzt tho...hehehe

Considering the Training Lan had as a child, It probly would be him to win. I think I was just wanted it to be Galad. I mean he is one of my favorite characters in the series. Of course so is Lan. I think Lan is one of the few characters in the series who really knows Rand and what he goes through

[Malcor Sylverwood]

Originally posted by magatsu17 I think I was just wanted it to be Galad. I mean he is one of my favorite characters in the series.

Galad? The ultimate prick? Wow...I really didn't think anyone actually liked him...

[magatsu17]

Originally posted by Malcor S


Galad? The ultimate prick? Wow...I really didn't think anyone actually liked him...

I can appriciate any one who is totally into what ever they are. My favorite villians are the ones who are totally ruthless in what they do. Like that villian in Sleepy Hollow. She is so totally ruthless, I just love the part where she kills her sister and her maid. I can respect some one who goes all out in whatever they do.

Galad is similar, he always what he does is the right thing. No matter the consequences even to himself. He's not proud, doesn't boast, isn't arrogant, he just does what's right no matter what.

It may be a little crazy but you gotta respect it.

[nightfairy]

Just a note:

As good as Rand may be, as natural his talant, comparitively speaking, he just took up the sword. Taking that into consideration, he has the POTENTIAL to be the best blademaster. But as for current standing, lets not forget...

Gawyn & Galad have no doubt been trained since birth in swordsmanship. However, their training was, no doubt, only a part (albeit a major part) of their total training as part of a royal court. Also, they're still so young. Whereas...

Lan has been trained since infancy to be nothing but a warrior. To defend & protect, & if all else fails, to avenge. And he's so much older, he's simply had many more years to perfect his skill. And not in the mock battles of training, but in actual conflict. More than any of the others, he KNOWS what it is to be a blademaster. He also has the "nothing to lose" attitude going for him. He's not afraid to die so long as its honorable &/or fighting the shadow.

[GWINNA]

Originally posted by TimGoldenboots
As far as rating them it is difacult to compare. We know that when Galad became a whitecloak he was much better at teh sword than Gawyn. Gawyn, as I mentioned, killed several Warders & bladesmasters making him pretty dangerous by himself. Rand is at least as good a Gawyn, having killed a few warders himself, but he WAS getting his ass beat by that Toram fellow & Land made fairly quick work of him.


Remind me which Toram was agian.

[Archbishop]

I agree with Magatsu about Galad. He is a good character (not great though, he is still kinda one dimensional as far as development goes, but this could improve in later books), and he is entirely admirable in the way he lives his life.

Also even though it seems to be the consensus that Lan is top dog with a sword, I feel compelled to add that he is the most physical of those listed. He is equivalent in height to Rand, which none of the others are, and unless I am mistaken, he is more heavily muscled than any of the others. In addition to this, recall A New Spring in which he dispatches 6 men alone and at once. Rand beat 4 but would have been killed in the process. Speaks volumes in my opinion.

[Malcor Sylverwood]

I won't say Galad isn't an interesting character and a good addition to the story...but as for liking him? Sorry, not me.

[magatsu17]

Originally posted by Malcor S
I won't say Galad isn't an interesting character and a good addition to the story...but as for liking him? Sorry, not me.
Man, Nyneve asked him to get a ship, he promised he would, so he started a war over it. How can you not like a guy who does something like that.

[TimGoldenboots]

Originally posted by G.W.I.N.N.A

Remind me which Toram was agian.

Maybe I spelled his name wrong or something... The guy who Rand was dualing with in the tent before the fog came & Rand got stabbed by Fain in PoD.

He was getting the best of Rand then, but in WH, when they met him in Far Madding Lan kills him after a few minutes.


As for the rest, I am probably wrong in comparisons... We always see Rand's fights from his pov and always see Galad's fights from someone elses... For all we know, Rand is just as graceful and easy with the sword as Galad.

Of one thing I am certain. Galad's ability with the sword will be overshadowed by his ability as a general. I can see him taking control of the Whitecloak remnant that managed to flee Amador when the Seanchan took control. He will become Lord Captain Comander of the legion either in the next book or the one after that. Galad took an oath that made him a Whitecloak for life. If/when he becomes Lord Captain Commander, the question remains of what will he do with that title. If the CotL are to last until the Last Battle, he had better do something great. My guess is that he will either swear to Rand and rebuild his forces, or kick the Seanchan out of Amador.

[magatsu17]

He'll probly be considered one of the great captin's before he's done. Perin will probly be one also, Mat's obvious, and Gawn aswell. I can see them all being generals for Rands forces when the trollocs come sweeping out of the blight. Mat will probly be over everyone though.

[Jacob]

Originally posted by TimGoldenboots
When Lan was first discussing becoming a Bladesmaster with Rand, he told him it would take 5 years if he never made the same mistake twice. The only one we even saw start to maintain that kind of pace was Galad, but he left his studies. It has been about 2-3 years since Rand first picked up a sword.

That's just numbers and some learn quicker than others, same as with everthing else. E.g. some people practice Karate for their whole lives without ever getting a Dan while some that are very talented and practice very hard may earn the first Dan in less than five years. Rand is very talented and practicis for several hours every day. It's part of the story - Rand is ûbermensch :-)


(snip) That would explain how Tam got stabbed by a trolloc. None of the afore mentioned had a problem with anything less than a fade.

There was a whole bunch of them trollocs...


As far as rating them it is difacult to compare. We know that when Galad became a whitecloak he was much better at teh sword than Gawyn. Gawyn, as I mentioned, killed several Warders & bladesmasters making him pretty dangerous by himself. Rand is at least as good a Gawyn, having killed a few warders himself, but he WAS getting his ass beat by that Toram fellow & Land made fairly quick work of him.

I don't know, but maybe those blademasters Gawyn killed weren't really trying to KILL Gawyn during he fight (being an important prince - big misstake) while Gawyn (having gone totally wacko) was trying very hard to kill.

I don't think that Rand got his arse kicked by Toram Riatin and I don't think that Lan Killed Toram that easely, considering that he was actually wounded during the fight. Also, Rand killed those warders with his hands and feet (only say's "bare hands). "aiel style fighting" from those teachings that he also practeses a couple of hours per day, I guess. I don't think that that could be counted towards how good he is as a blademaster, even if that may help even during a swordfight.



Anyway...

I think that the REAL question should be:

Who would you like to have with you if you were one of a dozen pretty 16 year old girls walking through the Rahad carrying sacks of gold?

:D:D

[TimGoldenboots]

Originally posted by Jacob

That's just numbers and some learn quicker than others, same as with everthing else...


Not exactly just numbers. It is Lan's explaination of the best you could hope for in reguards to time it takes to be a Bladesmaster. Specifically he sayd, if you never make the same mistake twice it will take 5 years. That is as fast as it can be learnt.


Anyway...

I think that the REAL question should be:

Who would you like to have with you if you were one of a dozen pretty 16 year old girls walking through the Rahad carrying sacks of gold?

:D:D

The Seanchan.

[magatsu17]

Originally posted by TimGoldenboots


The Seanchan.


I'd take Authur Hawkwing

[Malcor Sylverwood]

Well color me suprised....I just never expecting that people would actually like Galad. Oh well, at least people don't seem to think he's the top blademaster...

[Jacob]

Originally posted by TimGoldenboots


Not exactly just numbers. It is Lan's explaination of the best you could hope for in reguards to time it takes to be a Bladesmaster. Specifically he sayd, if you never make the same mistake twice it will take 5 years. That is as fast as it can be learnt.


Bah! Sword fighting (and its forms) is a kind of martial arts and like everything else: some people learn to master the forms faster than other people. I do know something about martial arts since I did used to practice Karate (and miss it) and all that (never got to the swords though). Those five years that he mentioned was not some sort of magic number. Lan was simply making an estimate based on what he thought of Rands ability to learn/talent and his dedication. Since Rand started chanelling and dwelling in the Oneness all the time etc, I think that his ability to learn (focus on learning) has increased greatly thus leading to Lan's first estimate to be off point.

Good point about the Seanchan, creative interpretations of a question like that is rewarded by a laugh :-)

I'll join the quire singing Galad's praise! What a guy!

[magatsu17]

Originally posted by Jacob


(snip)
I'll join the quire singing Galad's praise! What a guy!

I'm glad atleast one person likes Galad besides me. At first when you meet Galad he's so easy not to like. First off you think he's a pretty boy because the first thing everyone says is that he's the best looking guy they ever say. Then they say he always does the right thing no matter what. But every one has atleast some annoying qualitys to them. I'm sorry but Rand annoy's me with his not wanting to kill women thing. I mean get over it already. But once you get to know Galad a little better, you see that he's just a guy who just trying to do the right thing just like everyone else in the series.

Then he became a white cloak, therefore even easier to dislike, but he became one because he believed in what the founder of the whitecloaks believed, not how what he has written has gotten misinturpeted over the years. And because he knew the Whitetower were using Elayne his sister who he loves, and Eqwene the woman he loves in their schemes.

Plus he's Rand's brother, how can you not like Rand's brother.

[elfnmagik]

ok my 2 cents in this blade master thing

Rand:..good form, always learns from his mistakes..plus i think LT helps him out a bit

Gawn: ok fighter... he's more of a genral then a blademaster..kinna like Garath Bryne

Galad: sigh what a prick.....but he does have enormous talent...kicking the crap out of his warder teachers (who probably haven't seen a trolloc in years ) was bitched smack by matt.....join up with the whitecloacks(oh yea he'll get alot of practice now)

hmmmmmm seems im galad -bashing....

Lan: has the knowledge..has the experience.....has the drive...

in my book lan all the way with a bag of chips

[magatsu17]

Originally posted by elfnmagik
ok my 2 cents in this blade master thing

Rand:..good form, always learns from his mistakes..plus i think LT helps him out a bit

Gawn: ok fighter... he's more of a genral then a blademaster..kinna like Garath Bryne

Galad: sigh what a prick.....but he does have enormous talent...kicking the crap out of his warder teachers (who probably haven't seen a trolloc in years ) was bitched smack by matt.....join up with the whitecloacks(oh yea he'll get alot of practice now)

hmmmmmm seems im galad -bashing....

Lan: has the knowledge..has the experience.....has the drive...

in my book lan all the way with a bag of chips

Gawn is better than an okay fighter he did kill 2 blademasters,


I also think Galad and Gawn have come a long way since their fight with Mat, but I'd put my money on Mat against anyone in the series. Talk about experience factor, he's got more than anyone alive.

But if it came down to Lan and Galad, I still think Galad would win, I think he's the finest swordsman in the series. It just seem to me that is one of his reasons to be in the series is to be the best swordfighter, but that's just my oppinion

[GWINNA]

Lan in his prime could whoop the shit out of anyone, in is current state, he could still whoop the shit out of anyone under ideal conditions. The only advantage the other ones have is youth. That's it. Galad wouldn't last 3 min. Gaywen, maybe 3. Rand, well depends on when you catch him, but I think he would last the longest(besides mat). Rand is familar with Lan's style(and vice versa), Rand has been putting himself through intensive training (waste, not only in the sword but fighting in general). All he has to do is not get so damn sick all the time.

[GWINNA]

Originally posted by TimGoldenboots


Maybe I spelled his name wrong or something... The guy who Rand was dualing with in the tent before the fog came & Rand got stabbed by Fain in PoD.

He was getting the best of Rand then, but in WH, when they met him in Far Madding Lan kills him after a few minutes.


As for the rest, I am probably wrong in comparisons... We always see Rand's fights from his pov and always see Galad's fights from someone elses... For all we know, Rand is just as graceful and easy with the sword as Galad.

Of one thing I am certain. Galad's ability with the sword will be overshadowed by his ability as a general. I can see him taking control of the Whitecloak remnant that managed to flee Amador when the Seanchan took control. He will become Lord Captain Comander of the legion either in the next book or the one after that. Galad took an oath that made him a Whitecloak for life. If/when he becomes Lord Captain Commander, the question remains of what will he do with that title. If the CotL are to last until the Last Battle, he had better do something great. My guess is that he will either swear to Rand and rebuild his forces, or kick the Seanchan out of Amador.
Oh, him. Keep in mind that when rand faced him he was wearing a constricting coat and slippery gloves and having problems with Lew Therin at that time. We also don't know exactly how good toram is until he faces Lan, and that isn't much help as Lan is still better than Rand at that point.

[Jacob]

Unless you're standing around glaring at each other for two and a half minutes, tree minutes is a rather long time when you're fighting. Unless maybe you are in a movie where every blow is shown three times from three different angles followed by a slowmotion close-up of when the swords cross. If you last for three minutes against someone activly trying to kill you as quickly as possible in a swordfight, you're probably not that far off the other persons skills. Or equal to the one your fighting even.

[GWINNA]

Originally posted by Jacob
Unless you're standing around glaring at each other for two and a half minutes, tree minutes is a rather long time when you're fighting. Unless maybe you are in a movie where every blow is shown three times from three different angles followed by a slowmotion close-up of when the swords cross. If you last for three minutes against someone activly trying to kill you as quickly as possible in a swordfight, you're probably not that far off the other persons skills. Or equal to the one your fighting even.
Keep in mind that they aren't fencing, There using fairly heavy swords. It's much slower with a heavy sword then with a fencing sword. Also keep in mind how long someone can stay alive. When your fighting to the death, well desperation sets in. Keep in mind that while one guy is trying to kill you, you are also trying to kill the other guy and thus they tend to balance each other out. Of course all it takes is on move that he can't counter in time. Time varies from fight to fight.

[Mann]

Yes but, they're both using bundled lathes, which whilst being properly proprtioned and balaced are lighter than the swords they're using. Also they're not using broadswords but hand and half swords; ne bastard swords. Theses are cutting weapons not bludgeoning ones therefore being lighter; and faster.

It's also worth noting that both Rand and Toram are bladesmasters and are both using power-wrought(Toram-implied) weapons, which are well crafted and light.

Oh, and there are no forms in martial arts.

[GWINNA]

True, but they are at least 4-5 times heavier than fencing swords also keep in mind that while the martial arts has no forms there are forms in fencing because they decided to name everything. So apparently did the people of the Third Age. It also makes it easier to write.

[Malcor Sylverwood]

Inigo: You are using Bonetti's Defense against me, ah?

Man in black: I thought it fitting considering the rocky terrain.

Inigo: Naturally, but you must expect me to attack with Capa Fero?

Man-in-Black: Naturally...but I find that Tibal cancels out Capa Fero. Don't you?

Inigo: Unless the enemy has studied his Agriepa...which I have

[GWINNA]

Originally posted by Malcor S
Inigo: You are using Bonetti's Defense against me, ah?

Man in black: I thought it fitting considering the rocky terrain.

Inigo: Naturally, but you must expect me to attack with Capa Fero?

Man-in-Black: Naturally...but I find that Tibal cancels out Capa Fero. Don't you?

Inigo: Unless the enemy has studied his Agriepa...which I have
Excelent movie.
I am not left handed!

[Malcor Sylverwood]

One of my absolute favorites!

[magatsu17]

Princess Bride Rulz,

Did anyone see that episode of Xena where Jockser was hypnotized, and made an awesome fighter.

Then he was fighting a some one and the dude said"There is nothing you can do that I can't counter."

Jockser says"Your right you can counter every thing I can do, with my left hand, but I'm right handed."

then he switched the sword to his other hand and proceeded to wip the dudes ass.

Very Princess Bride like, and still my favorite Xena Episode.

[hrothgar]

Hey, all. I just found out about this new haven for former-wotismers, and had to join.

Anyway, I thought that in one of RJ's many interviews he put this question to rest, indicating that Lan was the ultimate swordsman in Randland and abroad, bar none. But I haven't gone to the archives of RJ's interviews to check this, so I could be smoking crack. If so, I apologize. I wonder if anyone else can confirm hearing that?

Anyway, assuming I am wrong, I think it is probably not possible to have a "best" blade master. After all, once two combatants have reached a certain level of super-proficiency, isn't it impossible to unbundle luck and circumstance from a victory based on actual superior ability alone? In other words, at some point, does a bladesman eclipse the marginal rate of return of their skills with the blade -- say, after hitting the top 1, 2, or 3 spots in all of Randland, when faced with an adversary who also occupies a place among the top 1, 2, or 3 swordfighting spots in all of Randland? And isn't this even more true when the contest is not basketball or weightlifting, but a contest between warriors armed with deadly weapons that can kill even when a blow misses its intended target, but mistakenly hits home elsewhere? At best, a refined answer can come only after a bunch of matches between the same two guys, with the title going to the one who is victorious the majority of times.

Nonetheless, even if we assume we can answer this question -- say we hypothesize some sort of vacuum-cleaned, computer-analyzed setting -- I think RJ clearly intends that Lan is the Michael Jordan of RJ's swordsmen characters. I think the structure of the novels, from the get-go, has leaned that way, and I don't think the subsequent advances of characters like Galad, Gawayn, and Rand changes that. The Aeil honor him as the greatest of all wetlander fighters they have faced; he is Rand's greatest teacher; and he is Moirraine's chosen warder.

So, if I were a betting man, I think I would bet on Lan against any of the other swordsmen -- and I would assume that my chances of winning my bet were probably not much better than guessing heads or tails on the flip of a coin.

-- hrothgar

[Malcor Sylverwood]

Originally posted by hrothgar
At best, a refined answer can come only after a bunch of matches between the same two guys, with the title going to the one who is victorious the majority of times.

Unfortunately, this isn't basketball...the loser wouldn't likely be up for a rematch... ;)

[Jacob]

Originally posted by Mann


Oh, and there are no forms in martial arts.

There aren't?? Where ever did you get that idea? I wouldn't call anything where you simply swing your arms and feet in random movements a martial art at least. And then there are the Kata, which are all about about forms, rather long forms at that.

[QuirkyTemplate]

I'm pretty sure almost everyone agrees that Lan is the best. I mean ... it's no contest when you think about it (and since everyone has already explained why Lan is the best, I'll just shut up).

Oh, and Matt would wup the crap outta all of them. Everyone here knows that if he squared off against Lan, Lan would like ... trip or something and fall to his eminate doom (or injury).

[balefire]

I wouldn't say he's the ultimate prick but I don't like Galad. Why for the sake of the Light did he have to go become a Whitecloak? They all can go suck balefire.

Originally posted by magatsu17


I can appriciate any one who is totally into what ever they are. My favorite villians are the ones who are totally ruthless in what they do. Like that villian in Sleepy Hollow. She is so totally ruthless, I just love the part where she kills her sister and her maid. I can respect some one who goes all out in whatever they do.

Galad is similar, he always what he does is the right thing. No matter the consequences even to himself. He's not proud, doesn't boast, isn't arrogant, he just does what's right no matter what.

It may be a little crazy but you gotta respect it.

[Mann]

Originally posted by balefire
They all can go suck balefire.

[/B]

Really? You want him to suck you?
It takes all types I suppose...:eek:

[balefire]

I don't see what that has to do with him sucking me. Your mind must be really tainted to come up with such an idea. Since you like Whitecloaks so much, you can go suck them. I don't think any Compulsion is required for you.

Originally posted by Mann


Really? You want him to suck you?
It takes all types I suppose...:eek:

[Jacob]

Mann is a lolbroek and was just making a joke, Balefire. (Your choosen pseudo + what you said that he responded to = ?) Not everything said here is all that serious, we try to be a lighthearted community about most things and tend to joke around a fair deal.

Anyway...

When I saw your name I registered, I was going to ask if you were the same balefire (the only one I've seen before with that pseudo) that used to come to the old site (later going by his real name, Ciro), but I'm pretty sure now that you're not him. Either way, you're welcome to our abode, balefire.

[Mann]

I don't think Ciro would have taken offence somehow.....

btb, whats a lolbroek? (showing my ignorance of Scandinavian)

[Jacob]

Lolbroek isn't Scandinavian. Though since it's Dutch, it's not that far off, I guess. Mike taught me that word and I felt it such a good word not to use :) Lolbroek means (~) funny pants. Smarty pants I guess would be the best translation maybe.

[Mann]

its not the pants but whats in them

[Running Wolf]

I actually voted Lan,
veteran blademaster, Legend in the Blight and the fight against.
Royal decendent, bloody past, unconquerable will.
Galad would press Lan in sparring, but, under the moonlight, in the middle of a battle, if they got to square off, Lan would make short work of him. Through his experience, will, and greater strength.
You dont swing a sword for as many yrs as Lan has, and still be in a prime physical condition to fight, and not have a distinct strength advantage against a younger man who has only swung a sword in the same matter for 3yrs.
And Galad does not have any more natural talent than Lan does. Lans lineage attests to that, its questionable wether Galad has the same amount of natural talent as Lan.
Rand and Galad would be an excellent matchup i beleive. Both are natural talents. The reasons I read in other posts about Lan and Galad, I beleive are better descriptionsof Rand/Galad.
Rand is hardened, heart and mind. Galad is an idealist. A zealot at that, but still idealistic. Rand beats Galad cuz he is harder.
So i say Lan, Rand, Galad.........
But wait........ No one has mentioned Ta`veren(sp?)
If Rand can be his same blademaster status and be taveren, especially as strong Ta that he is, then all bets are off. Cuz then Rand wins
;)

[Priest]

While i also believe that LAn is the most talented swordsman in the book there is something else to consider. Does Rand get to use his two flaming red swords that he seems so reluctant to use. With those babies i think he would be up there with Lan due to the fact that he has two vastly superior baldes. Does Rand get to sue them for this poll?

[flyingdutchman]

Has anyone thought about one of the forsaken being the best?
be'lal was balefired after kicking Rand's butt, and that was after Rand defeated High Lord Turak in falme. And maybe some of the other forsaken (demandred, sammael) were even better. After all, they lived for a couple hundred years already before being sealed into the bore.

[LaughingTurtle]

maybe....but there's just not enough info on them to make a good enough assumption on their skill level. And it's not like they've been using their swords that much anyway...I mean with the one(/true - heh, heh, heh ;) ) power, they've gotten lax in their blade usage. (also being head hancho's with numerous underlings to do your dirty work for you doesn't help either). Then again...maybe not...

[balefire]

Originally posted by LaughingTurtle
maybe....but there's just not enough info on them to make a good enough assumption on their skill level. And it's not like they've been using their swords that much anyway...I mean with the one(/true - heh, heh, heh ;) ) power, they've gotten lax in their blade usage. (also being head hancho's with numerous underlings to do your dirty work for you doesn't help either). Then again...maybe not...

I think the Forsaken aren't as good as Rand, because Rand knows the usefulness of not relying solely on the Power. Remember when Taim sent away the swordmaster or whoever it was that taught the Black Tower swordfighting, & Rand told Taim to get him back because "there will be times when they cannot use the Power"? I think the Forsaken are disdainful of mundane things like swords & spears & will be less skillful with those.

[Pope Trevor]

It's quite possible though, that some of the Forsaken believed, like Rand, that swordsmanship was important.

The Forsaken haven't lived for 3000 years by ignoring details, like swordplay.

My belief is that many of the Forsaken are very good, just like Rand is.

[Mann]

The surviving male forasaken, Demandred, turned against LTT for envy, as he was only just worse than him in swordsmanship (amongst other things) (,which they re-invented from a sport to kill). And LTT was the greatest swordsman of his age. .: Demandred is the greatest swordsman. Its all in the Guide.

[flyingdutchman]

doesn't that imply that rand is the best, because of lews therin's memories? mat remembered the ways of the ashandarei too, remember?

[Mann]

He's only getting partial memories, and that one wasn't mentioned. Besides swordwork isn't all from memorie, there's muscle memory and phisical strength aswell.

[Hank]

I gotta go with Lan on this one myself. All the others are just too inexperienced and Lan seems awful battle-hardened. As in, he wouldnt hesitate to fight dirty if he had the chance.

[Jacob]

Originally posted by Mann
He's only getting partial memories, and that one wasn't mentioned. Besides swordwork isn't all from memorie, there's muscle memory and phisical strength aswell.

Yea well, if as you say (and it's said), that Lews and friends re-discovered the way of the sword, wouldn't it then be natural to assume that during the 3000+ since, swordsmanship has actually improved? Including training technices and forms. Traning technic's and forms that Rand has been taught e.g.

[Pope Trevor]

swordsmanship might not have improved in the last 3000 years... nothing else has.

During that time, all kinds of things were lost or forgotten, and swordsmanship techniques could have been lost as well.

[Jacob]

Yea but one of the major reasons for the loss of knowlege is that the knowlege isn't used. Often the reason for this is war. E.g. it's been stated that alot of knowlege was lost during the War of the Hundred years. And the breaking, of course, since the whole world was in chaos then and everybody was busy trying to stay alive (most didn't, including those with the knowlege). The art of swordsmanship has been pretty much in constant use for the last three thousand years in Randland propper. (no way am I calling it "the Westlands!")

[Mael]

Weel, it seems pretty much almost everyone agrees Lan is the best. And between all the replies, everyone has sorted the good and bad qualities (Shoot, half the dull gern replies where about Galad! And nobody I knew thought that much on him!) So I will simply defend Tam's honor on why he should have been in the Vote.

As one pointed out, Both Tam and Lan EARNED their Blades. Gawyn defeated 2 blademasters, yes, but both where old and not exactly honing their skills. They were teaching, and from what we saw, most involved pitting students against eachother after they got really good. Rand did defeat one, and prolly would have the other if he had not felt the evil. But Rand also has the power, and with a Sword wrought from the One Power... yeah... We see where that is going. Galad, while good, has never really fought someone to prove he is good. Not saying he aint, just not too much is known. You still have to give your hats off to Tam. He did after all, become the Captain of the Swords (Or some wierd Illian title) and did manage to SURVIVE the AIEL War, which even Lan nods his heads to the Aiel! Even if he has not touched a blade in 20 years, he still held his own in the Trolloc raids, and when he did get hit, he had already felled almost all the trollocs that invaded their property. In the Trolloc raids during Perrin's Stint, he was often used to go out and scout things. Why? He rocked with the sword. Yes Aram is quickly gaining, but I do not think when they say he is hard pressing Tam that they mean in skills, I think they meant it in a constant training way. Not only that, So far he is the only one that actually recieved a Blade for being a Master. Rand got his from Tam, then Aviendha, While the rest have none at all. Yes, Lan is a Blade Master, having all the Blade Masters who ever have talked in the book say that Lan is one, makes him one. Tiss all fer now. I feel I have at least given Tam a good chance... :)

[Mann]

It's also stated that the high point of military science was in the yaers preceding the war of the hundred years, and that in the chaos ensuing most of that was lost. Sword work has to be taught; and the talented teachers have to be both willing and able to teach in the ensuing chaos.

[Berk]

Who is the only person in the series that Lan admitted was better than him at swords?

This is a trivia question because I do know the answer and yes, Lan did admit that.

[Mann]

Damn! I know this. I know this. it's that Malkieri who unbraided his hair; that darkfr5iend that Lan killed. Damn what was his naqme. Fells like cheating if I look it up.

[Gina]

I cannot help but remember Galad fighting Mat and losing. Granted Mat and Rand are naturally the better fighters being reborn and all.

I give Galad credit he has learned well.

Who are the true blademasters however.

You have to pick Rand, think of Rand and Lan fighting...who would eventually win. Rand will seek the void and beat Lan, everyone in their hearts knows that. Although he is the young untrained blademaster his abilities would shine through in the hour of need. So here is my list of the best (and yes Mat is included):

1. Rand
2. Mat
3. Lan
4. Tam
5. Perrin
6. Thom
7. Galad

[Gina]

No one remembers about Thom HUH! He did fight with a fade after all.

[Mann]

Perrin, Thom and Mat aren't swordsmen, ergo blademasters.

[Berk]

Lan knows about the void also and can do it. He tried instructing Rand in book 1 till Rand told him he already knew it.

Also, Rand fought a blademaster (name?) in the tent in book 7 for a few minutes and ended in a tie pretty much, granted Rand did not undo his gloves, take off his coat, or use the void.

However, in book 9, Lan fought that same blademaster in the time it took Rand to run into a room, slash a few times, and settle down. We are talking maybe 5 seconds here. The fact that it doesn't even mention Lan's fight shows how superior he was.

Lan is the Man.

[Aldebaran]

The thing is that in a one v one arena, rand would most certainly defeat anyone, lan , sman, everyone and their can. Afterall, if he dies, the series ends! no more money for RJ and Tor!

Seriously though, you can't really distill out all their attributes. So yo ucant really ignore's rand's hugely strong Tave'ren effect, just like you can't ignore lan is slow aging (granted he has a lot more experience, nor does he have those wounds that rand has)

And re: Toram Riatan, Rand fought him in the tent for sparring, not with the intent to kill. I'm pretty sure that he could have kicked his ass if he had wanted to. The only time he got hit was when mashadar arrived, and that wound in his side flared up like 500 pills of alka seltzer in a can of surge.
I think lan's fight with toram took a while, and lan took a cut during the fight as well, plus he went in with intent to kill.


So i would say that my order for blademasters (not overall fighters) would have to be

Rand

Lan

Tam (He rose to captain through sheer skill, in a land where there is a great difference between nobles/commoners. So its really unlikely that he would have gotten that high unless he was really good. And he managed to kill 3 or more trollocs that winternight without having used that sword for at least 18 years or so.)

Galad (he does seem to be good, shares lineage with rand)

Gawyn (he hasn't really proven himself much, he had trouble with that aiel untill the aiel misstepped over a corpse, he killed the aging instructors, who i am sure did not fight with intent of killing their instructors. Killing blademasters who want to avoid seriously injuring you, along with a bunch of younglings and assisted by those 300+ masons or what not doesnt prove anything)

Aram (all the descriptions of him fighting are in groups, usually at perrin's side, against other groups. so his ability is unclear. Him pressing Tam shows that he is an eager learner, but i would still bet on tam to kill him, if say it was revealed that aram was a dorkfriend or something of that sort.
(Sparring/training do not really show his ability as a blademaster)

[TheDude99]

there is only one problems with forms:
as with martial arts, forms can be constricting... you have to know what form your enemy is using and know the form to counter it (that's a great deal of what being a blademaster is i think)
but as bruce lee (the greatest and most superior martial artist ever) said, forms are constricting, it limits what you can do... that's why he invented his own style that had no forms... any swordsman that could throw off the yolk of the forms would be the greatest... and you all, let's not forget that rand trains damn hard basically everday and three forms of fighting, with spear and buckler, sword, and with hands and feet... he's becoming one kickass individual.
but i'd always go with Lan in the sword fight... like when he arrived to his new AS after Moiraine was gone, her other two warders were ready to try to fight, but to me it sounded like they were worried about him... in my mind, he's probably one of the top 3 greatest warders in terms of sword fighting

[baxts]

i totally agreee witth the dude99, while egwene, suian, myrelle, and nicola, and all them are talking, lan is practising the forms etc so fast and so fluidly that myrelles warders are descibed as watching, and being more than a little awestruck, nicola is gaping, and lan is not even breathing heavily, hes also yaken stock of egwenes position etc, like he was able to concentrate on his surroundings at the same time. and as for anybody who says hes old, hes well into his forties but (quote) "healthy as a bull and twice as strong"

lan is totally the man, the aiel dont call him death on two legs for nothing!!

who are the other two warders youd put up near lan tho dude99??

[supuradam]

i agree with dude99 about the martial arts part. i don't think being a blademaster means you have to know all the forms flawlessly, and that's it. if you have ever studied martial arts, you'd see styles like Tae Kwon Do, Kempo, Hapkido, and Kung Fu, just to name a few, all use forms, and for the most part are largely worthless unless your opponent studies the same form, or he's a guy who knows nothing about fighting. i think being a blademaster means not only that, but also that you can just kick major ass in a fight. i mean, what good's a blademaster if he knows his forms, but the second you throw him into a fight, he gets torn to pieces? and that is why lan is the best. he's just a beast.

[Navaho]

I'd vote for Lan any time, for the same reasons everyone has already posted. But one thing that struck me while reading some of the replies is that Rand unlike the others (??) has the advantage of the void, thus giving him an edge over the others.

[Beowulf]

I'm sure most truly hardcore blademasters like Tam and Lan use the void though.

[Jacob]

Yea, if you remember, it was Tam that taught Rand to use the Flame and the Void in the first place. TAN: In a way, it does actually sound alot like a meditation/exercise I was taught once at karate.

[archely]

I don't know what "TAN" is but basically the flame and the void is a flashy name for the exact way we meditate in kendo.

[Theoban]

The Flame and the Void is described exactly in an American 'psychic' journal as a way of focusing your inner abilities. This book was out well before WOT.

[Aragorn]

Okay, we all know Galad, Gawyn, and Tam are good. Maybe equal with Lan and Rand. BUT Lan and Rand are bonded as Warders, which give them among other things increased stamina. A fight between Galad and Lan might last a while, but eventually Galad's gonna get tired, while Lan can keep going for days.

[BenIII]

Toram only beat Rand because Rand was gaping at the fact that the tent had been eaten by the fog.

Rand killed one Warder with his bare hands and used the dead Warders sword to kill another.............

[Byrn]

Rand is the most deadly man alive. Lan is the most deadly with a sword, no question. In a fight though, I think Rand could take anybody, even Mat.

[sven]

I dont think that anyone is giving Rand the credit that he deserves. First of all even though he is youngest and hasn't been using the sword as long I think that the time that he puts in training, usualy against four or more oponents, makes up for any amount of youth. Also don't forget that in addition to his pure swordsmanship he trains daily, or at least he was with Aiel in hand to hand combat which he incorporates into his fighting. As for his fight with Toram Riatin neither man was able to so much as touch the other with their practice swords until the fog came alive and started eating people. I don't know about you but if that happened around me and I was fighting with practice swords I think I would prioritize with the psycho clouds also. Toram was obsessed so he took the opportunity to whack Rand one. When Lan eventually killed Toram it said that Lan had taken some wounds as proof of Torams skill so it wasn't as if he just kicked his ass. Finally it's Rand who has the fate of the world on his shoulders. You tell me what better reason there is to train to be the best you can be at everything

[Remlin Tolvier]

In pure skill with a sword (not counting assistance from the one power or benefits of being a warder), I think Galad is a close second to Lan with Rand coming in third. Lan was taught from the time he was able to walk how to use a sword. Galad seems to have been blessed with a superior phisique and great reflexes while Rand, though he has been training hard, has only been training a couple years or so. Most of his victories have come from luck do to his being ta'veren, or from being underestimated by his opponent because he possesses a heron mark blade at such a young age and they think there is no way he could possibley be a blade master.

[Warder Trained]

Lan is the best of the Warders. That means he is the best of the best. Period.

Of the hundreds of Warders out there, men who have been training with the sword all their lives, I'm sure you could find a couple who could beat Rand and Galad. None to match Lan.

And consider that Lan has decades of constant training. As far as Rand matching that goes, I think what Bashere said about Jearom applies to Lan as well:

"Do you really think you'll live long enough to match the greatest swordsman who ever lived?"

[Murhagh]

Rand is the best.

[Molimo]

Murhagh: Why do you say that?

I haven't been taught the Flame and Void at my karate class :( but we do meditate sometimes, and I use it, and it's actually quite relaxing.

[balefire]

Originally posted by Warder Trained
And consider that Lan has decades of constant training.
I have to agree. Since he was trained from young, & he had plenty of experience in the Blight & elsewhere, it stands to reason that he's the best.

Originally posted by Death's lawyer
I haven't been taught the Flame and Void at my karate class :( but we do meditate sometimes, and I use it, and it's actually quite relaxing.

I tried using it as Tam mentioned, but it didn't work. Maybe I lack practice, or maybe I'm too ill-disciplined to get it right. :o

[Aziz]

the sword is strong But can it compair to the qutarstaff or more importantly the power made tool mat carries. i think not.
exampel .fairstrider was the best none better Hammer told u he lost to a farmer with a stick .he took 10 at one time show me one better.Aziz. pease favor ur sword.

[Lady Damodred]

Lan of course!
He's had the most experience!

[Son of Battles]

Remlin Tolvier, Galad was not blessed with a superior physique! He is graceful, but he is kinda skinny and definetely far from having a great strength! i would have to say that he was middling as far as strength goes. Rand on the other hand is very nearly as broad in shoulder as perrin but he is also bloody tall! While i would say Lan is stronger than Rand, Rand is definetely stronger than Galad and taller as well which would mean he had a greater reach. Mat is good but from what i remember of his fighting scenes he seems to kinda struggle, like when their camp was attacked on their way to Cairhien from the waste and Mat fought that made. He definetely wasn't having an easy time of it, and the same goes for couladin, who was admittedly extremely dangerous. But when we read Rands fighting scenes like in shadar logoth against fades and trollocs, when he was chasing Sammael, he cuts them down with barely a thought without using any one power other than to make that sword. That sword may increase his ability, being part of him, but that is still some fighting, 5 or 6 trollocs and a fade in the space of a few seconds!

[Llothlian]

rand is the best sword fighter ever. period. he draws sadain into himself, and everything around him slows, he speeds up, and he goes hack hack hack :) without the power he wouldnt be nearly as good... but he does have the power... he IS THE POWER!!! moohaaaaa (perhaps he isnt but it sounded cool)

[LewsTherin]

best sordfighter...maybe lan but rand doesnt even need a sword to take all three.....

[Rallan]

For my money, the best swordsman in Randland would have to be a tossup between Rand and Galad.

Yes there's a lot of blademasters and other really good swordsmen out there (Lan, Gawyn, half the male Forsaken etc etc), but at the end of the day only Rand and Galad are described as being ludicrously good. Rand has effortlessly danced the forms through hordes of trollocs and darkfriends in his time, both with real swords and power-wrought blades, and has come out completely unscathed pretty much every time. He's surpassed Lan (a blademaster and presumably one of the best swordsmen among any Warder living), he practices by _defeating_ five hand-picked expert swordsmen at once, and when it comes to swordsmanship in general he can do five impossible things before breakfast.

Meanwhile Galad is similarly awesome. During the Ghealdan riots we see him wade out into the midst of a homicidal mob, surrounded on all sides by men trying to kill him, and completely cut off from help. And he just wades in and out and does such a brutally graceful job of butchering everything that moves without being touched that hardened veterans like Uno's Shienerans, Thom, and Juilian are all in _awe_ of his ability, since they've never seen anything like it before. The warders at the White Tower considered him the best student in living memory, and even the head trainer couldn't beat him any more. Gawyn described seeing him train from childhood, and the few things that he didn't get perfect the first time around, he got perfect the second. The only time we see anyone even _touch_ Galad in battle is the sparring match between Mat and the brothers, and that was mainly because by the time Galad stepped in, Gawyn had already been despatched and Mat (the finest warrior in Randland, even if he did have a serious Shadar Logoth hangover on the day) could deal with him alone.

Basically these two guys are machines, and the description of how they fight leaves every other swordsman in Randland for dead.



Rallan
ps, I was gonna say it leaves _everyone_ else in Randland for dead, but then I remembered Mat :)

[Rallan]

No WAIT! Scratch my last post, the real answer is so obvious...


WEIRAMON!

Let's spend a moment looking at Weiramon's track record. He's valiantly launched pointless cavalry charges against Cairhienin and bandits. He was off-camera in most of the battle for Cairhien city, but we can assume he did his fair share of valiantly launching pointless cavalry charges there. And as the crowning glory of his career as a master tactician, he's valiantly launched _suicidal_ charges against hillforts (defended by Sammael himself) and against entire Seanchan _armies_, and he's managed to come out of both experiences not only unharmed, but with his mustaches still waxed to perfection.

Now I ask you, who but a blademaster of the finest order could manage a feat that even Lan, Rand, and Galad have never accomplished? The answer's obvious. Weiramon charges boldly into battle because he's the finest swordsman who ever lived and can't be killed by strength of arms. Where mere blademasters can manage to reduce unfashionable activity to a bit of sweating and maybe having someone's blood spattered on their coat if they're unlucky, Weiramon remains spotless. And considering the amount of effort it takes to maintain proper grooming, it seems he somehow manages to find time on the battlefield to touch up his makeup and keep his coat on straight, a feat even the pretty-boy Galad couldn't equal :D



Rallan

[balefire]

Originally posted by Llothlian
... he IS THE POWER!!! moohaaaaa (perhaps he isnt but it sounded cool)

That sounds like Masema saying Rand is the Light made flesh. :rolleyes: Why don't they just call him the Light/Creator Reborn? ;)

[Llothlian]

oo that sounds good... i may have to write to RJ and sugest it :D

[balefire]

Originally posted by Llothlian
oo that sounds good... i may have to write to RJ and sugest it :D

Well I suppose if Rand does something really spectacular they would probably elevate him to the Creator Reborn.

~pauses~

Wait, didn't Rand once ask Asmodean about cleansing saidin & Asmo laughed & said something like "You must think you really are the Creator!"? So looks like he is the Creator Reborn after all.:D

[lan sam]

uhh. IN CoT, didn't Radn and Lan have a completely fair fight and Lan won? ( I may be confused, bu tI'm pretty sure thats how it went) Besides, you're only a true blademaster if you can beat people without swords too.

[Llothlian]

and if rand was fighting properly, would he not use the power, or at least hold it, and this would give him an increadible advantage over ANY other person with a sword... and you dont have to fight unarmed to be a <i>BLADE</i>master, you only have to fight with <i>BLADES</i>.... duh.... unarmed combat is something else... thats what rand learned in the waste from Lan and the Aiel...

[Night_Daughter]

I say a tie between Lan and Galad. With Rand its not a fair fight because if he was loosing, he'd probably get frusturated and balefire his opponent to death. Even in a stedding he'd probably trick the person to get outside the stedding. Lan has a lot of experience, he's in good physical condition, he never surrenders till he's dead, he has great skill, Galad has all but the experience and Lan wants to die and would take the excuse of loosing a fight to die. I think that they are very close and we won't see until they fight.

[Llothlian]

in a pure sword fight, i would have to say Lan. I think there will be a confrontation between Lan and Galad soon, as galad is being set up as the head of the warders, and Lan is the best of the warders they will fight soon...

[Byrn]

How is Galad being set up as the Head of the Warders. He's a LT. in teh whitecloaks.

[Llothlian]

sorry im thinking of Gawyn then, his brother :) my bad

[Freemason]

If it weren't for Rand having problems with dizzyness, I'd put my money on him. Lan is the best of the best without a doubt. But he lacks the single-mindedness of survival that Rand has.

That said, I'd say Mat is the most dangerous man in Randland. I know from personal experience that a staff is an extremely formidable weapon. Small wonder why I favor them :D A staff used by a skilled man will always defeat a European style sword.

But you cannot ignore Perrin either. A skilled man determined to rescue his wife with absolutely no regard for his own safety can and will succeed. Even if Rand and Lan were in his way, Perrin would tear them apart.

[Raunch]

I agree with Freemason. I think Mat could put a whoopin on all of them. However, best swordsmen i would have to say Lan.

[True_Twilight_]

this may be a little old but I personally think that Rand is the strongest person of the series but Lan is flat out the best swordfighter. He's taught Rand most of what he knows and has years more of experience so personally i think Lanis the Best Sword Fighter.

I think the true question, now, is from what we know of the books, who is the best swordfighter of other series besides WOT

[Sajhe]

*shakes head* rand killed 3 warders with his HANDS and mortaly wonded a couple more BEFORE the aes sedai could bind him with Air, and to be honest i dont think that would take very long to do. sure Lan is good, but Rand is HELL more deadly, WHATEVER you say, and dont come bragging about Mats skills with the ashandarei cus then you'r just plain dumb and blind.

[lan sam]

they prove in in CoT that Lan is better when Rand and Lan duel.

[True_Twilight_]

Lan is better...Sajhe, don't you think Lan could kill three warders just like Rand.

Forgetting the One Power...Lan is the better swordfighter.

[Son of Battles]

*New Spring Spoilers*
****************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************In New Spring Lan is definetely not the best sword fighter there is. He's good, up around the the top even but not the best. He acknowledges that Ryne was the better sword fighter but that he one because Ryne was Cocky and stupid because of it, so frankly Lan got lucky. Bryne, Ethenielle's prince consort was 'sposed to be around as good as well, i know his son said he was better but that was probably family loyalty, but he did save Lan's life twice in the blight. And while Lan beat 6 people, and probably kandorians two, in one fight he was very surprised to survive that let alone win. He thought that sort of thing only happened in the stories. But a major point of contention in New Spring Lan doesn't fight in Ko'di or the oneness and Rand does. It boosts there abilities alot. As i am not sure whether lan fights in the oneness in the present day books you can only speculate as to who is better. Currently i think it is Lan but i think its close and I think potentially Rand is far better.


P.S. Both Mat and Perrin rock in a fight and are up there with the deadliest 10

[Sajhe]

WHY would perrin be deadly? he has an axe, and he have been using it for about 2 years up to date, he NEVVER trains on it, in fact the only times he use it is while fighting. Perrin has been lucky that is all. NOWHERE in the books it says that he is even a LITTLE skilled with his axe.

[Llothlian]

He killed a Fade in book two. That takes more than skill. In book two he kills a dozen or so Whitecloaks while freeing the Aiel. Plus it is not an axe to him. It is his tooth. He is a wolf, wolves fight instinctively with their teeth.

Mat also never trains, (as far as I can remember) but you all keep saying he is really good with his polearms...

[Rallan]

Originally posted by Freemason

But you cannot ignore Perrin either. A skilled man determined to rescue his wife with absolutely no regard for his own safety can and will succeed. Even if Rand and Lan were in his way, Perrin would tear them apart.

Nah, Perrin's a fighter not a dueller. He excels in pitched battle because he's got a bit of technique and can just keep on keeping on all day, and he's clearly reasonably good at what he does since he can go toe to toe with Myrrdraal without a second thought, but he's not the best of the best. Personally I'd rate him on a level with Gawyn (pretty damn awesome, but not quite enough to compete in the Randland Olympics) rather than Mat, Rand, Lan, or Galad.



Rallan

[Rallan]

Oh and on the Warder-Killing front, I'm not sure it really cuts the mustard when it comes to Ultimate Fighter credentials. Rand killed three barehanded, Gawyn killed the head weaponmaster, Lan very nearly killed one of the ones hanging out with Myrelle, even Elyas fucking Machera (a man best known for his aversion to personal grooming) has managed a few in his time. For all that they're supposed to be one of the most elite bodies of armed men in the world, it seems like every man and his dog can take a few out without pushing themselves too hard.



Rallan

[Rallan]

Originally posted by Llothlian

Mat also never trains, (as far as I can remember) but you all keep saying he is really good with his polearms...

That's part of what makes Mat so awesome. He never trains and he still kicks everything's butt. Mat goes through Myrdrraal without really trying all that hard. Mat wakes up with a Shadar Logoth hangover and takes out Galad and Gawyn at the same time. Mat leads pitched battles against the Shaido Aiel, survives an entire day of being in the thick of the heaviest fighting, and takes out Couladin (a man who we can assume was probably a pretty impressive fighter). Mat survives aiel assassins in his sleep. Mat takes out Grey Men without prior warning. Mat has gone toe to toe with a GHOLAM (unarguably the single deadliest thing you can ever run into when it comes to a stand-up fight that doesn't involve tricky magic powers) and survived not once but twice now. He does all of these things ludicrously well, and he does them without even bothering to stay in practice (although then again, the amount of trouble he gets into means he probably doesn't _need_ to practice).



Rallan

[Son of Battles]

Ah sorry to put a spoke in your wheels, cause most of the time i completely agree with what your saying, but Mat can't just wipe out mydraal without really trying. In whichever book it was when Rand, Mat and all the Aiel were coming out of the waste into cairhien, on the night there camp was attacked by shadowspawn Mat has a pretty god damn hard time taking out just the one Mydraal and that was from his own perspective.
And i think that yet again Perrin is being underrated, and he has had that axe for longer than two years, he had it well before they left the two rivers if you'll go back and read book one again. And for as well tempered as he seems Perrin really does have a knack for fighting, not to mention he enjoys it, because if you'll recall he more than held his own when Loial, Aram, and he were seperated among a sea of Shaido and you didn't see him having to much trouble. I mean come on the man grabbed a spear point with his bare hands, when his axe was occupied, without a second thought. Now that is tough, not to mention his enormous physical strength. And that was without the advantage of the blood thirsty rage he has when fighting shadowspawn. Which brings me to the point of his wolf senses and instinct, so don't go telling me he isn't anything much cause he can damn well hold his own against those aforementioned characters, he may not be the best or the prettiest at it but when it comes down to it he is right up there with the deadliest.

[hakyo]

Im new here, I agree with Rallan, even without training Mat definitely kicks ass!! Being able to beat Coulladin which evryone will agree is one hell of a shaido fighter.. Mat fights half_heartedly because he doent choose his fights, he hust falls right through these battles but he still manges to win convincingly. Imagine what he can do if he took his part more seriously

[True_Twilight_]

Mat dosen't need to train because he has memroies of trained men fron hundreds of years before....memories of great men and great fighters.

[Llothlian]

Every one of Mats fights I remember he has been right on the edge of dying. He is ALWAYS scraping that extra second of life. I agree that he is lucky beyond belief, and this carries him through a lot, but he isnt that skilled compared to the rest of them.

[True_Twilight_]

no...he isn't as skilled as Rand or Lan but before he recieved the Stick and Sword thingy ( i forget the name) he did boast the he could use a stick with a large hard top (forget the name of that too....its not a cudgel)

[logan]

Lans the best blademaster, but if he and Rand fought Lan might slip and be killed by Rand because Rand is Ta'Veren

[Enariom]

Lan! He's tha man :D
Btw; there's a magnificent scene in one of the books (don't remember wich one now, think it's # 6) where Lan is practising his swordforms. Egwene is watching him move faster and faster and faster, and then still faster untill you just sit there reading with a :eek5: on your face...
It's prolly my fav "sword-scene" ever :D

[Rallan]

Wow, I'm surrpised Lan's kicking so much butt in the polls. Sure the man's got form and he's pulled a few impossible tricks in his time, but personally my money's on Rand. We're talking a guy who's idea of practice is picking the best swordsmen in his army, taking them five at a time, and being reasonably likely to win. A guy who managed to kill a warder and whoop a couple more of 'em with his bare hands. A guy who, way back when he was still an inexperienced sprout before he'd had years of hard training and experience under his belt, managed to kick the ass of a Seanchan blademaster who was (according to the Seanchan blademaster's own opinion) some severely hot stuff. A guy who just happens to be the reincarnation of Lews Therin Telamon, allegedly the greatest swordsman of his time. To be blunt, the guy is hot shit, and clearly intended to be the most unbeatably awesome swordsman in town.

Lan on the other hand, he's unbeatably awesome, but obviously not the _most_ unbeatably awesome. He's survived decades as a Warder to one of the most active and dangerous aes sedai in town, goes through myrddraal like a dose of salts, thrashes warders when he has to, and seems to have single-handedly carved a trail of destruction across half the known world after Moiraine's death, but at the end of the day he's getting a little (shall we say it?) old. And meanwhile there's not even a sure way of knowing whether he's a better swordsman than good ol' never-makes-a-mistake-twice Galad, let alone Rand.



Rallan
- and although I'm not gonna suggest for a moment that Gawyn's the best of the bunch, we shouldn't underrate him. He did manage to kill the head instructor-type warder dude after all

[Byrn]

In New Spring, Lan killed SIX swordsman without a scratch. Rand didn't come away from his practice session unscathed. Lan is death walking. Rand has more abilities which puts him at a higher deadliness.

In a straight swordfight, Lan would most likely win.

[Shadow Dweller]

Lan also has his abilities enhanced now thanks to the warder bond, but I guess that's a moot point as Rand does as well.

[Rallan]

Damn lousy New Spring. How _dare_ a book I haven't read yet contradict me :)

[Jaric Mondoran]

I haven't read the whole thread for obvious reasons, but I don't think you have included the best swordsmen of all in your poll.

I would say that Lan is probably the best of the modern day swordsmen, but he would still be cut to ribbons by both Sammael and Be'lal.

Be'lal was a blademaster in the Age of Legends, and Sammael was the world champion in sword fighting.

I would say this makes them pretty much unbeatable.

No doubt, in the Age of Legends, scientific techniques would have been applied to analyze swordfighting in detail, in order to develop the art to its ultimate potential.

Training programs would be better, conditioning more advanced and the sheer size of the population would guarantee that the top fighters would be unmatched in any other age.

Just look at modern Olympic athletes, compared to athletes of a 100 years ago, or even 50 years ago.

There is no contest. More advanced training = better performance.

[Enariom]

Training programs would be better, conditioning more advanced and the sheer size of the population would guarantee that the top fighters would be unmatched in any other age.

Just look at modern Olympic athletes, compared to athletes of a 100 years ago, or even 50 years ago.

There is no contest. More advanced training = better performance.
I'm not sure I agree with you on that one. I practise martial arts and I don't think our training-methods are any more sophisticated then what they had in China 2000 years ago. But there's no knowing that for sure is there? ;) And that's another of my points: we can't know anything about the way they practised sword ages ago. Who knows; maybe the rougher lifestyle of contemorary Randland makes better swordsmen? :)

[Byrn]

Wasn't Rand holding his own against Be'lal even after a couple of months traveling rough. Not only that he was suffering from insomnia caused by Be'lal and others. Be'lal eventually gained the upper hand and that's when Moraine walked in. I would say that Rand in his top form would've been a match for the Netweaver.

[Jaric Mondoran]

No, Be'lal was toying with him, trying to push him just hard enough to get him desperate, but not hard enough to kill him.

You see, Be'lal wanted Rand to become desperate enough to draw Callandor, since only Rand was able to penetrate the shields around Callandor.

We see from Rand's own viewpoint that he realizes that he is facing someone far better than himself.

As for martial arts. That's an interesting one.

I don't claim to practice it myself, but I watched a documentary recently, comparing all the fighting styles and trying to see which is the most deadly.

They interviewed a lot of experts.

They say that most of the traditional forms of martial arts were very ceremonial and were not necessarily the most effective fighting method.

There was general consensus that modern kickboxing, and something called Ultimate Fighting (some kind of cage fighting that is almost illegal) is the most deadly.

These guys are not only fast, but are actually built like american football players (think Jean Claude van Damme or Dolph Lundgren)

And you should see them in training. They use computers to measure the pressure exerted by a kick or punch, they measure the flexibility of their limbs scientifically, they measure the pressure their stomach muscles can absorb etc.

It is totally professional. And they fight all the time, because that is how they earn their living.

According to them, a traditional Kung Fu master, like Bruce Lee, would be mince meat if he had to face one of these monsters. They showed some footage of live fights, and it is truly awesome. Shin bones snap under a single barefoot kick, and ribs are crushed with punches.

These guys move faster than the eye can see, and yet they are three times the size of Bruce Lee.

While Kung Fu may look impressive with all its smooth moves and stances, apparantly these modern martial arts are the real deal.

Apparantly if Bruce Lee, using traditional Kung Fu, met one of these guys in a dark alley, there would be no contest.

There are no "kata" or ceremonial stances (like the Crane in Karate Kid), just deadly kicks and punches. It ain't pretty, but it is lethal.

All of you martial arts enthusiasts, please share your opinions in this regard.

[Byrn]

I think the Key to your argument is if Bruce Lee used traditional Kung Fu. Watch any documentary of Him and you'll quickly learn that he used whatever worked. Read up on Jeet Kun Do(sp), the martial art started by Bruce Lee. I've watched some of the Televised Ultimate Fighting. Most of those guys can't even lift their arms over their heads. Bruce Lee would've had a field day with them.

You want to talk about speed, Bruce Lee had to slow down so that his motions could be captured on film.

[Jaric Mondoran]

As I said I'm no expert.


But in every real fight I have seen on TV, especially Cage Fighting which looks pretty awesome in my opinion, there is never space or time to go into grand poses, with one leg in the air, dancing on one toe, poking vaguely into the sky with one finger.

All of that stuff is just for the movies, for dramatic effect.

The real fighting is ugly, and dirty. But it is still fast.

You just have to wonder how much damage a 160 pound (roughly) guy like Bruce Lee could do to a fully trained martial arts Cage Fighting expert, who also happens to be built like a brick sh*thouse.

It's like putting a featherweight boxer against Mike Tyson(when Mike was in his prime).

I don't know that much about Bruce Lee, but did he ever actually take part in real fights, or was it all just movie shoots?

You will never see a fly kick in a real kickboxing or Cage Fighting contest, because it is plain ridiculous.

Neither will you see hand chops etc.

They go for maximum force, with minimum frills.

Shaolain monks or ninjutsu experts in black pyjamas would be a joke to these guys. (Makes me think of Cohen the Barbarian when he visits Discworld China)

So what if you can do the Drunken Monkey style, or the Five Legged Cockroach Routine?

The Knuckle Sandwhich will still knock your teeth out!

But I'd like to hear from some more guys who do martial arts. I've always wondered which is the deadliest.

I've attached a picture of one of the fighters weighing in at the UFC (Ultimate Fighting Championship) tournament.

A picture speaks a thousand words.

[Byrn]

Bruce Lee was jumped on the street quite often. Guys were always trying to prove themselves against him. It comes down to knowing where to hit your oppenent. The joints, throat, Solar Plexus, ears and crotch are all weak points. His movies are nothing like how he would attack a real threat. A real martial arts master will take you down in two or three hits. Bruce Lee could take guys down in one.

[Jaric Mondoran]

I did a bit of research and found this informative article on about.com/martial arts

I just copied a small part of the answers. We are really only interested in the parts I have highlighted in bold letters. Here goes:


About.com's Martial Arts FAQ



This file, in no particular order, deals with questions and issues that frequently come up in the discussion of the martial arts, often brought up by those new to the field. Not all issues are covered, so if you come up with something that you think should be included, please email me and let me know.

Contents
1. What is a martial art?
2. What is the best style?
3. Is karate/kung fu/etc. really useful in a fight?
4. Aren’t martial artists all Bruce Lee wannabes?
5. Who was the greatest martial artist of all time?
6. Can martial artists fly like in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon?
7. Could Bruce Lee really fight?
8. How should I go about choosing a school/style?
9. Is studying the martial arts a good idea for fitness?
10. Am I too old/young/female/weak/fat to benefit from training in the martial arts?
11. What is a McDojo?
12. What should I look for in an instructor?
13. What should I expect to pay?
14. How long will it take me to become a Black Belt?
15. What does having a Black Belt really mean?
16. As an instructor, what is it my students expect of me?
17. What is the difference between Sport and Self-Defence, what should I choose, which is better, and why?


1. What is a martial art?
- Basically, a martial art is a skill or skillset relating to human conflict, particularly physical. (Martial = war, art = skill)

2. What is the best style?


- That depends entirely upon you. There is no ultimate, ‘best for everything’ style or school of the martial arts. There is only what suits you and your goals.

3. Is karate/kung fu/etc. really useful in a fight?


- You get out what you put in. If you train hard, with realism and a focus on using the system to develop fighting skills and have a good teacher, then yes.

4. Aren’t martial artists all Bruce Lee wannabes?


- No. In general, martial artists will tend to laugh at Bruce Lee (or any other kind of) wannabes at least as hard as anyone else. While admiring other martial artists or martial arts performers can be used as a great motivational tool, just the same as in any other field of endeavour, such hero-worship if it is there at all generally either wears off or becomes a detriment to your development.
5. Who was the greatest martial artist of all time?


- This is a question without an answer. There is no possible way to define ‘greatest’ or to judge all practitioners of the martial arts throughout history that can make this question make sense.

7. Could Bruce Lee really fight?


- The evidence is somewhat inconclusive as to Bruce Lee’s ‘real life’ fighting abilities. Given the responses of his direct students, and the abilities and knowledge they display, it would probably be a safe bet that even if he wasn’t a really great fighter, he had some really good ideas. You answer for this would be ‘probably pretty darn good – very strong and fast, some great understanding, so he could probably fight. But he wasn’t a god.’

[Enariom]

I think I have to agree with Byrn on this one... I'd like to use my trainer as an example. He's the captain on the Norwegian national team (don't know what word you use in english). I think he weighs about 90 kilos.(who said you had to be short and slim to practise martial art?) He'a a big fucker, but he's fast, he's stretchy and he has a spirit of steel :) He fights in accordance to taekwon-do rules, but he knows (as he has told me on many occasions) that he would never fight taekwon-do style if he ever got in a streetfight. (By taekwon-do style I mean the way they fight in contests) He would use every ugly trick in the book, and the difference between him using ugly tricks and a kick-boxer/boxer using ugly tricks, is that he knows "power-points". He can make your eardrums explode and your kidneys knot themselves in ten different ways :p And if that doesn't do it, he can still throw a blow at your face that would open a hole the size of a small country :D
And: if his life was hanging on a thread, and he was on the verge of a heart-attack, he could still summon up the mental energy he's gained through years of meditation and training, and practically will himself to go the extra mile... :whip:

And btw: I seem to recall that Van Damm was a balet-dancer if my memory serves me right.... :p


(Me think this is a really interesting duscussion :))

[Jaric Mondoran]

Yeah, you are right Enariom, Van Damme is a pansy. He was a ballet dancer. But he is built really well.


I said the UFC guys just look like van Damme. They don't fight like him, thank goodness.


Yeah, I hear what you say about pressure points etc.

The thing is, all those UFC guys know that as well. They know every dirty trick there is. Most of these guys started out as experts in other styles of martial arts before specializing in this type of fighting. So they are well versed in various fighting techniques.

But to me, the difference is that even a master sensei or whatever they are called maybe gets into a real fight once or twice in his life.

The rest of the time it is only training room exercise.

Those UFC or K1 guys fight brutal, bone crunching battles constantly.

There is a big difference between being a perfect rifleshot when target shooting, and having to drop a man at a hundred paces while taking incoming tracer fire in Vietnam.

Similarly, being a great fighter has a lot to do with killer instinct in addition to great physical abilities.

These UFC guys aren't blundering WWF wrestlers who are trying their hands at real fighting. They are highly skilled martial artists who also are very strong, very fast and they fight for a living. Month after month. Each time they go into the ring they know they could be carried off with a broken leg, rib or jaw.

And they are OK with that fact, they don't mind getting hurt, or hurting someone else.

Even if I was a black belt in karate, I still would not like to break someone's nose. It takes a certain kind of person to do that fight after fight.

I reckon those guys are very dangerous. Possibly even a little psycho...

[Byrn]

But they don't fight to kill. They fight to incapacitate. What Enariom and I are saying is : a true martial arts master, when faced in a fight, is going to hit you and you are not going to get up....ever.

[Enariom]

But to me, the difference is that even a master sensei or whatever they are called maybe gets into a real fight once or twice in his life.

The rest of the time it is only training room exercise.

This is a very good point ;)

Similarly, being a great fighter has a lot to do with killer instinct in addition to great physical abilities.
Yeah, but aren't we trailing away from the original discussion here? This killer instinct you're talking about, isn't this a matter of individual traits, not wich branch of "who's-the-better-fighter"-thingy you're on?
(What was the original discussion anyway? I have a bad short-term memory :p)

[Enariom]

But they don't fight to kill. They fight to incapacitate. What Enariom and I are saying is : a true martial arts master, when faced in a fight, is going to hit you and you are not going to get up....ever.
This is also true... If my Sabounim hits you with all his force..... You simply do not get up again. Simple as that....

(sorry about the doubble-post)

[Jaric Mondoran]

Yes, but what I mean about killer instinct is this.

There are thousands of martial arts experts. Most of them will never be in a real fight, so you will never know whether he has "killer instinct", for want of a better word.

But anyone who takes part in a brutal event like UFC must by definition have this killer instinct we referred to, or else he would not last in his chosen profession.

Remember, these UFC guys did not start out doing their style of fighting. They gravitated towards it from other fields of martial arts.

So you will find that the most "violent" or "brutal" guys from every martial arts discipline, will end up taking part in these extreme events. So to me that signifies that they are kind of the best of the best.

The ones who choose not to do it, are the ones that are not so enthusiastic about full contact, or are less eager to face the dangers inherent to this type of event.

That's why I say that these guys are the most dangerous people around. They are as close to the gladiators of ancient Rome as we can get in the modern world.

Of course, there may be some grey bearded monk sitting on a mountain top in Tibet, who could kick the shit out of all of them, but somehow I doubt it. After all, you are only as good as your last fight. And a fight with a stray mountain goat hardly counts, in my opinion.

Ha, just a joke...

[Enariom]

I don't agree that if you don't choose to fight you wouldn't know how to if you had to....

[Byrn]

Once you've trained with any martial art, it becomes instinct.

I suggest reading a short story by Stephen R. Donaldson called The Killing Stroke. It's in Reave the Just and other Tales. Donaldson(who studies martial arts) explores some things which would be relevant to this train of thought. He explains it much better than I ever could. I think you would find it interesting(meaning Jaric and Enariom both).

[Jaric Mondoran]

I guess we'll never know, until someone is forced to fight.

Anyway, back to the original topic, which was whether traditional martial arts were as deadly as the modern day versions.

Here is a great article from the fightingmaster website, answering just that question, and also going into which martial art is the most dangerous.

To me, this reinforces the opinion that more scientific techniques will lead to greater skill. Thus, I put to you again that Be'lal and Sammael would have had greater skills as swordsmen due to the more advanced training techniques available in the Age of Legends.

The part in bold goes into how real fighting experience is crucial to being an effective fighter.




The Martial arts have evolved a lot during our century. In our day, martial arts practitioners have the ability to choose amongst hundreds of martial arts styles. It is not just that there are more kinds of martial arts available, but that even traditional martial arts have changed. 30 years ago martial arts were all about forms, katas and tradition.
Don’t get me wrong, I do not believe that tradition and forms are useless. I just do not believe that we should do everything the way it was done hundreds of years before. People have changed and the martial arts had to change as well.
The mindless dedication to styles, forms and fixed techniques is either a result of the Japanese military way of thinking or a result of racist ethnic tradition that characterized some martial arts. Tradition had to survive and pass on to younger generations at all cost. So forms and katas were discovered. Forms and katas were used to pass knowledge but I am afraid that most martial arts instructors use them without knowing their true meaning because in their days you just followed tradition; you were not allowed to question it.
In the old days a martial arts practitioner did not have books and training videos to consult. Everything he needed to know was in the forms. Also these forms are a way of practicing without the help of a fellow practitioner. You can practice forms in your house, all by yourself, without any training equipment.
The truth is that no matter how perfect a technique one has or how much one trains by himself, he will not be able to beat a kickboxer that trains with a partner and is able to “read” his opponent’s attacks and find openings in his defense and his rhythm.
One can argue that traditional martial artists would use their imagination to “fight” against an imaginary opponent. Even so, that is not the same as trying to fight against a live unpredictable opponent.
Sooner or later the traditional martial artist is faced with an inevitable truth: his defense is not perfect and he gets hit. His mind sticks to his wounds and he loses the fight. A boxer on the other hand, gets hit often but because of his fighting experience he just continues fighting. His mind does not stay with the hit but continues to attack and react.
When you step into a traditional martial arts school, you are very impressed by the whipping sound of karate uniforms worn by students when they punch or hit. They sound very powerful. The truth is that most of them lack any real power. A kickboxer hits the thai pads hundreds of times in just a training session so his punches and kicks are conditioned against a resisting and strong target. The only traditional martial artists that have true power in their attacks are the ones that use makiwaras in their training. Everybody else lacks any real power and may break his hand in a real confrontation.I must admit that all martial arts have strengths and weaknesses. For example one can say that tae kwon do practitioners are vulnerable to boxing and wrestling attacks. The truth is that Tae kwon do practitioners are very dangerous if you underestimate them, especially when they wear shoes. A wrestler may argue that he is not afraid of them because he will initiate a false move, manage to grab them and take them to the ground. But some day he will just be unlucky and get kicked in the head by a slim tae kwon do guy that has long legs and explosive kicks.
The truth is that anyone can beat anyone depending on the conditions. A boxer once told me that the most dangerous attack is the one you least expect. I was watching a kickboxer sparring against a kung fu practitioner once. The kickboxer would prevail on most of the fight and so started to underestimate his opponent until the kung fu practitioner used a somewhat crazy move and hit him in the groin with an eagle claw attack. That was it. The fight ended.


Photo by Susumu Nagao

We can also consider the old question: Which is the most dangerous weapon, a hand grenade or a knife? One could argue that a hand grenade is more powerful. That is mostly true, but let’s say that you are fighting inside an elevator. Then the knife would be more useful.
The same applies to martial arts. All martial arts can be effective depending on the conditions. With that in mind, I do not want to accuse any styles, let’s just say that some martial arts styles are doing a great job proving to us that they are very effective while others are not. Jujitsu and kickboxing, for example, are effective and there is no doubt about it.
Mixed martial arts events have helped a lot in this area. In these events every fighter tests his martial arts style against other ones. That has caused a lot of changes. Karate practitioners learn to defend against a low kick and use more flexible blocking techniques. Jujitsu stylists also train in kickboxing to enhance their striking ability and to learn how to defend in the kicking range. Kickboxers learn how to take a fall and survive against groundfighters. This is evolution. We strongly believe that in 10 years, the martial arts scene will be very different.
In order to help our visitors enhance their fighting abilities, we will name some of the fighting arts that have drawn our attention.

There are 7 styles that are very effective in certain conditions:
Wing Tsun (for trapping and Chi sao)

Kickboxing (kicks, knees, elbows, boxing and the clinch)

Taekwondo (kicks)

Kyokushin Karate (open hand attacks in vital points)

Aikido (locks, distance control and redirecting force)

Jiu-jitsu (choke holds and overall grappling)

We would recommend that a fighter start training in Taekwondo, then kickboxing and then a grappling art. However if you already train in any of these arts, the others will complement your fighting ability perfectly.

[Jaric Mondoran]

Just for interest:

I see that the UFC guy whose picture I posted a few posts ago is named Ken Shamrock. He has his own website and they call him:

"The most dangerous man in the world"

I am sure there is quite a bit of marketing involved in that title, but nevertheless, it makes for great drama.

They have some great pics from fightscenes on his site...

[Son of Battles]

Just as a quick rebuttal to the article you posted jaric, any claim that a master or sensei of his arts would not know what to expects in a real fight because he/she has spent all of their time training against themselves is absurd. Martial arts like kung Fu have been in practice for centuries in this time they have gained a great understanding of the human body, the way it moves and the tell tale signs. A twitch in the shoulder or a shift of weight from one foot to another to them signs like these would be be like air raid sirens, loud and clear. The true traditional masters like tibetan monks studied thier whole lives and work at being hard and extremeley fast. These are people who could flow from move to move from pressure point to pressure point, and they also had several ointments to toughen up there hands and feet for when they HAD to hit people. And that i believe is the key! they used their martial arts as a last resort type skill and the moves they learnt in it all represent that. They learn how to end a fight quickly and effectively. now i am not referring to the offshoots of martial arts that now practice as a competition but to the true old styles and masters.

[Son of Battles]

I apoligise for the poor grammar and articulation