Fight the really enemy.

[magatsu17]

They main enemies in the WOT sofar besides the DO ofcourse have been the Forsaken for the most part. but what if it turned out to be someone else.

In the game Final Fantasy 3, their is a character named Kefka who is really in the first part of the game just some annoying Todie to the Main badguy the Emperor. He keeps showing up here and there and you even fight him once but he escapes but you really don't think to much of him, he's not the Main villian just another badguy.

But about half way or so through he takes out the Emperor and get all the power for himself. In the end it's him you destroy.

Why do I bring this up, Because Kefka in a lot of way's reminds me of Padan Fain. It's like he's alway's there to cause trouble and he has a lot of power but you really don't think of him much as a main villian just another badguy.

I just thought it would be really cool if durring the last battle or whatever it turned out that Padan Fain was the main villian instead of Morrdin.

Just a thought.

[JoJo]

i think the prophet is going to at least start down that path, too. its so obvious RJ is setting him up to turn bad/go seriously crazy/etc...

[shinote]

I actually always thought that paden fain, at least since his little scene on top of the mountain outside of Tar Valon, I THINK thats what I'm thinking of, he just seemed like he was the main bad guy or going to become the dark one. not that I would have any real idea how he woudl be the dark one, but hey ANYTHING is possible. it is RJ I mean

matt

[TimGoldenboots]

I cannot see Padan Fain challenging the DO, but he has been gaining power each book. In book 4, he captured a Myrdraal and convinced it to do his bidding, somehow... By book 6 he was taking darkfriends & turning them to his will. I doubt that we can fathom exactly how much more powerful he will eventually become, but I remember reading in FoH that he was afraid of what would happen to him if the forsaken ever caught him. Soon, I don't think that he will need to worry about the forsaken too much.

The whole Wheel of Time series is based in a fight between "Good" and "Evil". I remember on wotism.org, a couple of years ago we had a discussion about this being a fight of Order against Chaos. But that doesn't seem to be the case. There is too much structure in the darkfriend society for the DO to be a true representation of chaos theory. In TEotW, Ishamael told Rand that the plan was to break the Wheel of Time & recreate the world in the DO's image. Thus the DO would be come the creator. Fel's note about clearing out the rubble to rebuild was probably not talking about this specifically, but it still applies.

Fain, on the other hand, represents corruption at it best/worst. Granted, he is clearly focused on killing Rand right now, but what would he do if Rand did die? He still has more enemies than he cares to think about. Would he challenge the DO? For those of you who believe that Rand will fake his own death, it would make more sence to convince Fain that Rand was dead than anyone else in the world. Obviously the evil of Shadar Logoth destroys the evil created by the DO.

When I think about it, Moiraine is the key to this. If she is still alive, but lost to the world for the time being, then where ever she is now will be where Rand will need to go to convince Fain he is dead. It is believed that the link between Rand & Fain is similar to a link between an Aes Sedai & her warder. If going there was enough to convince Lan that Moiraine has died then it will surely be enough to convince Fain that Rand has died as well.... Maybe that is was Alivia will help Rand do.

[shinote]

Originally posted by TimGoldenboots
I cannot see Padan Fain challenging the DO, but he has been gaining power each book.

but thats where you misunderstood me. I was saying he would replace the DO I never said he would challenge the DO. Even that I think is a stretch but it seems like a good idea, nice little plot twist at the end.

matt

[JoJo]

Originally posted by TimGoldenboots
I cannot see Padan Fain challenging the DO, but he has been gaining power each book. In book 4, he captured a Myrdraal and convinced it to do his bidding, somehow... By book 6 he was taking darkfriends & turning them to his will. I doubt that we can fathom exactly how much more powerful he will eventually become, but I remember reading in FoH that he was afraid of what would happen to him if the forsaken ever caught him. Soon, I don't think that he will need to worry about the forsaken too much.

The whole Wheel of Time series is based in a fight between "Good" and "Evil". I remember on wotism.org, a couple of years ago we had a discussion about this being a fight of Order against Chaos. But that doesn't seem to be the case. There is too much structure in the darkfriend society for the DO to be a true representation of chaos theory. In TEotW, Ishamael told Rand that the plan was to break the Wheel of Time & recreate the world in the DO's image. Thus the DO would be come the creator. Fel's note about clearing out the rubble to rebuild was probably not talking about this specifically, but it still applies.

Fain, on the other hand, represents corruption at it best/worst. Granted, he is clearly focused on killing Rand right now, but what would he do if Rand did die? He still has more enemies than he cares to think about. Would he challenge the DO? For those of you who believe that Rand will fake his own death, it would make more sence to convince Fain that Rand was dead than anyone else in the world. Obviously the evil of Shadar Logoth destroys the evil created by the DO.

When I think about it, Moiraine is the key to this. If she is still alive, but lost to the world for the time being, then where ever she is now will be where Rand will need to go to convince Fain he is dead. It is believed that the link between Rand & Fain is similar to a link between an Aes Sedai & her warder. If going there was enough to convince Lan that Moiraine has died then it will surely be enough to convince Fain that Rand has died as well.... Maybe that is was Alivia will help Rand do.

wow, that's a really cool, original, interesting theory, Tim! that just made my day, jolly good show!

[elfnmagik]

Let us not forget Mordin.....(heh -heh)

he drop-kicks the forsaken around like they were rag dolls .. plus he weilds the "true source" not the one power.........:D

Plus there the really tall mydrall who has a name ,but i forget what his name was .(.but i 'm not near my books to check..)

I think that these guys are going to run into Fain and the S*** is going to hit the fan

[magatsu17]

He's the Myddraal, and he's really cool.

We know Padan Fain can take any regular Myddraal. But vs Shaidar Haran? That would be a really cool battle.

Speaking of cool battles is anyone else here kind of mad we never got to see the battle between the Younglings and the Warders when the Tower split. That was probly one of the coolest one we never did see.

[elfnmagik]

I think it would be a short battle ...Shadir would kick his ass in

YES!!! Magastu that would of been a kick ass battle scene to see the younglings and warders fighting ..it would be like well Warders and Aiel fighting

[magatsu17]

Originally posted by elfnmagik
I think it would be a short battle ...Shadir would kick his ass in

YES!!! Magastu that would of been a kick ass battle scene to see the younglings and warders fighting ..it would be like well Warders and Aiel fighting

I also wish we would have seen Mat do some of his skirmishes with the White Lions in book 5, Mat's battle scene's always make for good reading. Instead of hearing about it afterward from Moraine

[elfnmagik]

yea ...mats fights remind me of a darth maul style....

[Elin]

Hmmm... this isn't my idea, but anyway: there's a lot about Padan Fain that is like Gollum in LotR. Herid Junior wrote a very good comparison between the two on the old wotism board, unfortunately he's not here and I don't remember exactly what he wrote. : (

Anyway, Fain might have some importance at the end of it all - without Gollum trying to take it for himself, Frodo wouldn't have been strong enough to destroy the ring...

[Lord Dragon]

I know this is an ancient thread but I thought this was an interesting speculation:

What if Rand goes to Shayol Ghul to dispose of the last seal so the bore can be properly healed and Padan Fain shows up to get the seal for himself. There could be a struggle, Padan could cut off Rand's Hand, fall into Shayol Ghul and gets sealed in as the new DO. Of course I havn't figured out how the DO dies so Padan can replace him...

[Nobbin]

Goldenboots put out a theory I liked alot something along these lines a while ago... Can;t remember the details and too lazy to search it out.

[Alys]

Fain, after what happened to him in Shayol Ghul, seems to be a representation of Man's evil, which is different from the DO's special brand. Maybe Rand will be able to fight the DO and win the Last Battle without Fain in the picture. If the DO is defeated it would erase that torn feeling Fain has inside of himself. He wouldn't have to be a Darkfriend Dog. ;)

Unleashed and all like that, maybe the wickedness inside of him would be so strong that Rand wouldn't be able to destroy Fain without dying, himself. That'd be an ironic twist.


I like Tim's theory better though. :p

[sms1824]

Maybe Fain is the DOs representation on the world while he is imprisoned. I mean, maybe he is the DO...in a way. Or maybe Fain is the other mind box on Moridin's neck. Being controlled by Moridin.

Havent read most up to date books so maybe u guys already no who it is that has that mind box.

[Byrn]

Cyndane and Moghedien are the two mind traps.

[sms1824]

to the pt ive read to they havent spoken about Cyndane yet.

[Byrn]

You'll find out about her....

[Fearless]

taking the original topic of this thread into acount, i think that it is a big possibility for Fain to replace the DO, in all honesty i think that he's gonna die by Rands hand but for the sake of argument....

so if Fain replaced the DO, i think the whole point of it would be that he is a different kind of evil; like more evil than the DO and more evil than Shadar Logoth, and as Tim says, he keeps on getting stronger.... so put it together,

Moraine describes the evil in Shadar Logoth being so vast that the whole White Tower probably wouldn't be able to destroy it, yet as far as i know it takes Rand botht the supeer-mega sa'angreal to destroy Shadar Logoth.. and we all know that the DO is supposed to be one bad ass... the way i see it, is put those two powers together and you get Padan Fain..


.......now the only flaw i see is that Fain is extremely insane.

[Meisterdieb]

Maybe this is a little off topic, but I keep wondering...

why is it that Padan Fain can take on Myrddraals like that?
If those two evils (DO/Shadar Logoth) kinda attract and cancel each other out then there must be someway that the Myrddraal are hurting Fain.

But the point is, why is fain so powerful??

[TimGoldenboots]

because the DO didn't "Create" the Myrdraal ot the trollocs... they were created by the Forsaken. It has never been explained whether Aginor used OP or TP when he created them either. In fact, I kind of got the feeling that it was his OP talent that lead to their creation so it might really have nothing at all to do with the DO other than that they serve him.

Fain has also shown how he can bend people who serve the DO to his will and make them serve him instead. Did I say Jedi Mind Trick? Since trollocs come from mixing humans and animals to make hideous crossbreeds, and myrdraal are the result of trollocs mating with a twist that is a throwback to the human genes, it is posible that they are as especially suceptible to Fain's power.

[satan]

also i think there is a hierarcy there, as you said, the trollocs and mydraal were created my the fosaken who were in turn "created" by the DO (or are at least almost directly beneith the DO) and fain says somewhere that he got his powers from the DO and so that makes his power similar to the forsaken, except for the obvious fact taht he cannot channel.
My point is, the Mydraal follow the forsaken somewhat because the are above them in the evil hirearchy of things

now i am simply rambling and i have no idea if anyone understands what i was saying but me.. ah well

satan

[TimGoldenboots]

Yea, I was lost when you claimed that the DO "Created" the forsaken... He corrupted them to follow him, but all the people were created by the Creator. Other that Shadar Haran, I have not seen any evidence that the DO has created anything...

You did make a point about Fain though... he has some evil from Shadar Logoth in him as well as some Evil that was born from being a darkfriend for 30+ years

Needless to say, this makes Fain a very conflicted man. It could be that conflict that is giving him the source of power. Clearly the 2 evils within Fain are not simply canceling each other out as they did with the Taint or Fain would have been long dead as soon as he was touched by Mordeth. So both evils, working against one another have somehow given him the benifits of being able to corrupt creatures of the DO. Darkfriends, Shadowspawn and posible even the Forsaken.

What happens when Fain starts to gather followers to serve him who were once Asha'man or Aes Sedai?

[epiph]

i think she meant that without the do the forsaken would never have become the forsaken, and so the do "created" them in that sense.

[TimGoldenboots]

But that is my point as well. The DO doesn't really Create anything except for Evil. It is this Evil that corrupted his followers. Saying that when they began to follow him they became his creation is reading too much into it. Otherwise, you also give every King and Lord the subtitle of Creator for crediting them with creating their own followers...

More simply it is to say that the DO creates Evil. And after Winter's Heart, we can also say that it is Shai'tan's own brand of Evil. Completely diferent than the Evil that consumed Aridol. That evil is the source of Fain's power. or, perhaps, while the source of Fain's power is the same Evil that consumed Aridol, his strength in that power is a direct reflection of the number of souls he has been able to corrupt with it.

[Craz]

Ok here follows a somewhat related thought....and hopefully coherent thought:

The dark one isn't evil!:eek: It is just a force like the creator. The creator imprisoned it and created the world. The dark one tries to break free. People being people see an opportunity to gain power or whatnot. (Lanfear drilled the bore, but was already seeking power before she turned to the dark side) It wants to be free and as the creator put it in it's prison it will probably want to put the creator in a prison and recreate the world. For that to happen this world has to end. So it's just a matter of interpretation: If the creator was imprisoned it would probably be trying the same thing and the creatures in the dark ones universe would be trying to stop it.

Therefore I don't think that neither Fain will be become the dark one nor will the dark one be destroyed....It would be like killing the creator. (Lanfear said challenge the creator...not kill it)

sidenote: Does mister Jordan refer to the creator and darkone with he? If so :D

[epiph]

oy.

[Craz]

sorry :blush: :umm:

[Mael]

Was the Dark One really imprisoned by the Creator? I do not recall hearing RJ at any book signing give a definate answer to that. Could it be that the DO simply exist in a different plane? RJ has shown that he allows different planes/dimensions in his universe. So what if the DO is merely another Creator wanting to flex his powers in this plane? Or what if the DO is the Creator, but some how corrupted in another plane. Or was he even corrupted. RJ has kept the Creator so mysterious, that it is hard to say. In most myths, legends, religions, the good god/power/creator always manifests himself, mainly in grandiose ways. This creator does not. We have only heard humans, mortals, say "The Creator bound the Dark One at the begining of Time" blah blah blah. Back in the Age of Legends, they had no idea who the DO even was. So how would they know this?

As for Padan Fain taking the spot of the DO, well, as I like to say, all things are possible in fiction. But I never got the feeling that he would. He will become powerful, and I do not doubt he will play an important roll in the future, but I tend to see him in the Gollum light. He will some how inadvertantly, or may even purposely, help Rand destroy the DO.

As for conving him that he is dead. A possible theory is that when Rand finds away to remove Alanna's bond, or when someone else does it, he will find the way to cut the bond. Also remember that when Rand assumes the Viod, Pain can not feel him. (Referencing the time Pain says something to the affect Rand has found a way to slip in and out of detection, and I just remember somewhere it relates that to Rand assuming the void.

[wiggin]

Well, there are a number of possibilities. One is that the DO and Creator are one and the same. It requires a slightly skewed method of looking at the universe, but that's all right.

Another is that the DO and Creator are separate, but in essence no different morally. As such, the DO is only "evil" in the sense that he's not with us, but against us.

One last argument is that the DO is the "balance" or "counter" to the Pattern. When the Pattern was created by the Creator, as a necessity, there was an equal amount of "anti-Creation" that was created, embodying destruction. The Creator bound those two apart so they wouldn't self-annihilate (much like matter and anti-matter), and the DO has been trying to destroy the Pattern ever since. So then "evil" would be actually "anti-creation".

Make of these what you will. I don't like any of them.

Ender

[Craz]

Take the possibility that the creator is the dark one. So how did it get locked up. Lets say that in the beginning the creator was free, but it toyed with the people, like it does now with the forsaken. Some people got fed up with this and locked him away. As the filosofer fell ( I believe) said the wheel turns and at the age of legend noone knew about the dark one. They drilled a hole...closed it, but not completely. Now the dark one tries to get out, but (hopefully) the bore will be closed more permanently. Perhaps as good as before or in such a way that it is indistiguishable of the first patch. The dark one wants to get out and break this cycle and remake the world....back to the way it was before it was locked up.

[Sinok]

What if... there is no creator? :DThe DO is the only superpower in the world? Somehow, he accidently trapped himself inside the Wheel of Time when he created it, and has been trying to escape all this time. When he does he'll chuck it back into the recycling bin and get back to whatever he was doing. As someone said before, the only reason he's "evil" is because his motives go against ours (survival).

[epiph]

i dunno if i agree with that whole "he's evil because he's against us, not with us." if you look at all the things that are represented with the DO...the taint, the things he ordered created by aginor, shadar haran, the TP...all these things are classically "evil" in the sense that we understand it. they're not just "against the norm," they are against all that is generally held to be "good." i suppose you could argue that perhaps what is being presented as "good" is really "evil" or that these things aren't the dark one it/himself, but he CAN communicate, and so far all things we KNOW he's said don't hold with "good," and that "if you aren't with us you're against us" argument only holds so much sway when you don't take into account the qualities that surround and run through the DO...

my two cents.

[True_Twilight_]

Padian Fain to tell the truth, though how crazy this might sound, I believe, will be more powerful than Moridin to tell the truth for I think most know he is at the stage of Forsaken power (manipulation,fear,ect.) Fain is sort of bonded to al'Thor when Rand dies Fain i Believe this for a fact will die---I know Fain wants Rand dead but I think Jordan will keep Fain as the last army Rand has to fight before he has to fight the Last Battle even if Fain is only a one man army.

[Master Raven]

Yes, but what is there to say that Fain won't be killed between now and the Last battle???? If he is insane, and is a darkfriend but not in anyone's control, and he DID capture a mydraal, woulnd't there be darkfriends going after him to kill him?