Hey check this...

[VerBATum]

ok

World of Dreams,
Crazy ppl,
Lots O' Heros,
Incarnates.

Right. not sure if this has been approched or not but.

Rand isn't real. i mena he is - but it's almost like he doesn't count. It's Lew Therin that honestly really counts. HE'S the one that made his presance in the universe known through his efforts against the Dark One. Rand, as kewl as he is, is only a shadow.

You 'member Silverbow talkin about how she's always diein and makin out with the ugly dude.

And she always comes back.

All this info only makes it logical that Rand-dude will die a glorious death, and manifets Back into the the Wod - with his son to carry on the legacy (and most likly provide a gateway for Lews to kick-ass agin). Long live Sadow Killa Junior!

Please be gentle when you shoot me down with your return theories - i'm a semi-newbi

[Litefoot]

Yeah, I'm with you on that one. But not all the way.

Rand is the particular person LTT has been reborn in. Rand himself is so powerful partly because of LTT's knowledge. And when Mat blew the horn, the souls bound to the wheel recognized him as Lews Therin, not as Rand.

But this is what I don't understand - why is LTT the important one? I may have this wrong here, so point it out if I do, but it was my understanding that every so often, a 'Creator's Champion' is born to battle the Dark One. In the age of legends, it was LTT, who has now been reborn in a different age as Rand. I don't think LTT/Rand is the same as Birgette - she is the original soul who keeps getting reborn after spending time in T'A'R.

Did LTT spend time in T'A'R before being reborn as Rand? And are we to believe that in the future, all the 'Champions' who battle the Dark One will be LTT reborn in a different body? I thought there was someone else, before LTT, and LTT was the person they were reborn in. In which case, LTT would not be the 'original' soul bound to the wheel.

[GWINNA]

Originally posted by Litefoot
Yeah, I'm with you on that one. But not all the way.

Rand is the particular person LTT has been reborn in. Rand himself is so powerful partly because of LTT's knowledge. And when Mat blew the horn, the souls bound to the wheel recognized him as Lews Therin, not as Rand.

But this is what I don't understand - why is LTT the important one? I may have this wrong here, so point it out if I do, but it was my understanding that every so often, a 'Creator's Champion' is born to battle the Dark One. In the age of legends, it was LTT, who has now been reborn in a different age as Rand. I don't think LTT/Rand is the same as Birgette - she is the original soul who keeps getting reborn after spending time in T'A'R.

Did LTT spend time in T'A'R before being reborn as Rand? And are we to believe that in the future, all the 'Champions' who battle the Dark One will be LTT reborn in a different body? I thought there was someone else, before LTT, and LTT was the person they were reborn in. In which case, LTT would not be the 'original' soul bound to the wheel.
Same soul, diffrent name, they used a name they knew and everyone would reconize. Like the psydo's used on this board.

[VerBATum]

Like that Eternal Champion guy! He was Elric of Melibone once and Hawkmoon another time. he rock - can't 'member the Author right now.

But that's about the jist of it, yes?




... and another post bites the dust.

[magatsu17]

When Mat blew the horn Rand put different names to all the different heros. I think they keep their most recent name till they are spun out again and get a new name.

[Litefoot]

In that case, you are saying Rand and LTT are one and the same, but I don't think they are. Rand is LTT reborn, but he isn't LTT himself. He is his own person, with a part of him LTT.

The soul is the same, but the person is not.

[VerBATum]

that the wording should be turned around.

that being Rand is a part of LTT.

one of his many faucets so to speak.

[Elin]

*tries to keep from laughing and fails*

That typo was really funny...
:D

*pictures water running out of LTT through faucets*

[magatsu17]

They are the same person, that the whole point of being reborn. LTT and Rand are the same person. Just like Birgette remebers all her different life times. When you are bound to the Wheel you are reborn again and again to serve the Wheel. LTT reborn is Rand they are the same person.

I think though this is a unique situation cause of the taint. I remeber Rand saying once he doesn't see how LTT could be in his head when he was LTT or some thing like that.

[TimGoldenboots]

There is a Diference between Rand/LTT & Birgitte/(Her Past Lives)

Granted that she was not born, but ripped from the afterlife back into the waking world... She remembers her previous lives as she had lived them not as someone elses memories(Mat) or a seperate voices in her head telling her stuff that happened. They were all her.

Rand's relationship to LTT is as if they were two diferent people with two diferent lives stuck in one body. A celestial voice mumbling in his head is more likely a product of the taint & Rand rationalizes it by thinking it is LTT. Maybe he has some memories of being LTT that are subconsciously being transfered into this looney voice to help Rand rationalize that he is not mad, but LTT is crazier than a loon. The Voice must be real to him, for is it isn't, then he is surely loosing his mind.

[GWINNA]

Ever heard of Multiply Personality Syndrome? I the case of Rand we have 2 minds with one soul. What is happening is that the two minds are merging right now. One doesn't live and the other the die, the two become one. Obviously Min misinterpreted the whole thing or it is refering to something else.

[Buckweet]

Schizo, is when you hear voices. (Gwinna for example :rolleyes: )

:D

Multiple personalities is when the person undergoes some kind of change and is somebody else. That hasn't happened yet. But it probably will in the next book. This whole LTT in Rand's head always freeaked me out. Its kinda creepy

~~~shivers and huddles in corner~~~

Buckweet Gaidin

[TimGoldenboots]

Yeah, Schitzo... That would describe well what Rand is going through... The voice in his head is no more real that the voice of my dog that keeps telling me to pee on stuff...

[GWINNA]

Keep in mind that we have some proof that the seperate mind of LTT is in fact the Mind of LTT. They whole voice in the head thing is probably the two minds attempting to merge.

[TimGoldenboots]

The very notion that the voice in Rand's head is the disembodied voice of LTT would mean that Rand is not LTT Reborn at all. He is guy with a fancy title. The Dragon Reborn by definition is LTT reborn. His spirit/soul/chi whatever you want to call it has been reborn into Rand. Rand IS LTT.... The voice in his head has it's own seperate consciousness. As in it is a seperate entity. If we are to take this literally, it is like 2 diferent souls in 1 body. :eek:

If Rand is LTT Reborn, how can LTT Still exist as a seperate entity? I am not at all saying that Rand doesn't have any conneciton to LTT's memories, on the contrary RJ set a standard that the characters in his world are tied to past lives as well as ancestors that sometimes manifest as memories. In TEotW, when they fled the Two Rivers & were charging into a small skirmish with some Trollocs Mat shouted a battle cry in the Old Tongue. This was even before the Dagger came into play & Lan made the comment about the old blood or some thing... Anyway, it was explained from the begining that folks in RJ's world can have memories of past lives... Too Shirley McClain for you? Well, at least it is proof... These memories have, in Rand's case, manifested as a voice in his head. But the origins of the voice are more likely an effect of tthe Taint than anything Else.

This theory is supported by Cadsuane's statement that "some men who can channel begin to hear voices....It is part of the madness. Voices conversing with them, telling them what to do." [ACOS: 18, As the Plow Breaks the Earth, 331]

Rand projects the memories of being LTT into the voice in his head to rationalize the fact that the voice is there at all. The voice is in fact the Maddness incarnate. Think about it, how many times has the voice tried to take over? It frequently attempts to sieze control of Saidin. Imagine what damage this loon would do if Rand let it take control of the OP.

And another thing, don't think for a second that the Voice will go away now that the Taint is gone. RJ has said repeatedly that whatever madness has occured will still be presant after the Taint is removed. This is consistant with men who have been "Gentled". But more importantly, Rand will abttle the Dark One mind body & soul until he dies at the end. In his head, he fight's for control against the coice. A war already wages in his body with the two wounds. In TG, I can see a spiritual type battle where the soul of the Dragon/Reborn does a final battle with the DO specifically. Similar perhaps to the end of TGH except on a larger scale.

[magatsu17]

Originally posted by G.W.I.N.N.A
Ever heard of Multiply Personality Syndrome? I the case of Rand we have 2 minds with one soul. What is happening is that the two minds are merging right now. One doesn't live and the other the die, the two become one. Obviously Min misinterpreted the whole thing or it is refering to something else.

Min can't be wrong, If she knows what it mean she's always right. It says so in every single book of the the series.

[TimGoldenboots]

Min doesn't even know about the voice in Rand's head. She had some rather vague vision of Rand and another person merging & becoming one, Rand interpreted this with the belief that LTT was the other person. That is not definative proof that it will happen that way.... Remember Elaida had a fortelling & her interpretation was way off but it was absolutly true..... Intrepretations are often flawed & almost always flawed in RJ's world.... Why would he give the ending away?

[elfnmagik]

If Rand is LTT Reborn, how can LTT Still exist as a seperate entity?

Who is to say that when one of the "heros of the age" are not them reborn but a blending of the two souls?

[GWINNA]

Originally posted by magatsu17


Min can't be wrong, If she knows what it mean she's always right. It says so in every single book of the the series.
The problem is that see doesn't always interpret things correct, it happens about once every book. Another thing to keep in mind is that there are souls in this series, it is a fact of the book. The heros are the same soul's diffrent bodies and minds. Think about the reborn forsaken as an example. The soul twists the body, but the body twists the mind. This isn't realy a hard concept, just use the princple of three forms(body, mind, spirit)
LTT = (Therin body, Therin Mind, Dragon spirit)
Rand = (Rand Body, Rand/therin mind, Dragon spirit)

[magatsu17]

I was just reading in book 5 were Moghedin remebered Birgette from the Age of Legends. She had known who she was even if she had a different name then.

This shows that the person doesn't really change at all when they are reborn. They may look different, or have some different talent or like or dislikes. But they are still fundementally the same person.

Rand and LTT is a situation where one bound to the wheel has been exposed to the taint on saidin. Maybe this break down the barriers between the different memories.

Either way I say LTT is real, Rand isn't scichso, It's still just a book and I think that at the Last battle They will somehow become seperated. LTT dies Rand lives.

[magatsu17]

Originally posted by G.W.I.N.N.A

The problem is that see doesn't always interpret things correct, it happens about once every book

Yes she does. It says in every book that I she know what it meant it happens period. She said she saw Rand and another man merge into one, also one of them dies.

If you need proof of this, she saw a silvery collar around an Aes Sedai neck, then she saw it break apart. she knew the woman would be captured by the Seachan and that she would escape. The Aes Sedai name was Esedina. Sound familiar, she the other Aes Sedai who Mat helped escape in Winter's Heart.

So please don't tell me Min has ever been wrong in this series with a veiwing cause she isn't. She said Logain would Achieve great glory when he was gentled and didn't even want to live anymore. Now he can channel again and is getting to be a high Ranking Asha'man.

Min is never wrong when she knows what it means.

[GWINNA]

Originally posted by magatsu17


Yes she does. It says in every book that I she know what it meant it happens period. She said she saw Rand and another man merge into one, also one of them dies.

Yes, but the key to it is that she knows what it means. In other words she has to know exactly what it means. In order to do that she has to know a few things first. If she doesn't have some peice of knowledge then she can miss interpret the viewing
Sometimes, she only thinks she knows what they mean.

If you need proof of this, she saw a silvery collar around an Aes Sedai neck, then she saw it break apart. she knew the woman would be captured by the Seachan and that she would escape. The Aes Sedai name was Esedina. Sound familiar, she the other Aes Sedai who Mat helped escape in Winter's Heart.

Case in point. Let's say Min had that viewing before she had heard of the Seachan. She would have very eaily misintreprated that viewing. This is not to say that it wouldn't be very similar, but the exact meaning would be diffrent. Also keep in mind that viewings are very metaphorical.

So please don't tell me Min has ever been wrong in this series with a veiwing cause she isn't. She said Logain would Achieve great glory when he was gentled and didn't even want to live anymore. Now he can channel again and is getting to be a high Ranking Asha'man.

Perfect. Now she knew he would achieve great glory but she didn't know how or that he would ever channel again. See the limitations of viewings yet?

Min is never wrong when she knows what it means.
Min doesn't know what it realy means, she only thinks she does because of her huge ego about these things.
:D

[magatsu17]

I can't believe I'm arguing about wheather Min knows how to interpet her viewings or not. I think there is proof positive in the books that she can. If you can show me where one of her viewings hasn't been fulfilled please do. If not then you have know arguement.

[TimGoldenboots]

It doesn't matter. We are getting YOUR Interpertation of what Min viewed about Rand. Fine, she had a viewing that Rand would merge with someone else & one would die. Does that proove that the Voice in Rand's head is LTT? Hardly!

It is no more proof than her viewing about Cadsuane teaching the Asha'man something means that she will show them how to live longer while their bodies are rotting around them. That was a common interpretation made about this before Rand cured the Taint. So tell me, oh guru of Min's viewings, what WILL Cadsuane teach the Asha'man now?

For that matter, how will Alivia help Rand die? I want proof...

Nobody is saying that Min's viewings are wrong, but when she doesn't know what it means, she doesn't know what it means. Now obviously she new some of what it meant, but she doesn't know what her interpretation really means... So how can you?

[magatsu17]

So tell me, oh guru of Min's viewings, what WILL Cadsuane teach the Asha'man now
I never believed that Cadsuane would teach Asha'man how to live longer with their bodies rotting around them. Considering the bargain made with Sorlea, she already said what she'll teach Rand and the Asha'man. To find laughter and tears again.
The Guru has spoken.:p

No seriously I'm not saying that my view is right cause I could be wrong. But saying that Min has misinterpeted one of her viewings is wrong. That's all I'm trying to say. But I've had a feeling since about book five that Rand was gonna clense the Source. But I always thought that breaking the seals would do it. Guess the Guru isn't always right.

[elfnmagik]

To find laughter and tears again.


Good point magatsu.. but that same quote is so cryptic... makes you wonder what she has in mind. Consider that it can be taken as both bad and good.

Bad: laughter on dealing with what taint are in the body tears on the training

good: to live again

[balefire]

I seem to recall in tEoTW that Baalzamon said something like each time he weats a different face & name, but each time it's him. I think it's the same soul, LTT, Rand, whoever was before that on all previous Ages.

By the way, I'm from UWA as well.

Originally posted by Litefoot
Yeah, I'm with you on that one. But not all the way.

Rand is the particular person LTT has been reborn in. Rand himself is so powerful partly because of LTT's knowledge. And when Mat blew the horn, the souls bound to the wheel recognized him as Lews Therin, not as Rand.

But this is what I don't understand - why is LTT the important one? I may have this wrong here, so point it out if I do, but it was my understanding that every so often, a 'Creator's Champion' is born to battle the Dark One. In the age of legends, it was LTT, who has now been reborn in a different age as Rand. I don't think LTT/Rand is the same as Birgette - she is the original soul who keeps getting reborn after spending time in T'A'R.

Did LTT spend time in T'A'R before being reborn as Rand? And are we to believe that in the future, all the 'Champions' who battle the Dark One will be LTT reborn in a different body? I thought there was someone else, before LTT, and LTT was the person they were reborn in. In which case, LTT would not be the 'original' soul bound to the wheel.

[Meyley]

Just found an interesting little snippet in EOTW. Not long after they have their little day trip to Shadar Logoth Rand has a dream which involves Mordeth chasing him thru the ruins of shadar logoth (he sees himself as a small child with Tam's sword strapped to his back). The interesting point is that while Mordeth is chasing him, he shouts 'I only need your hand' to Rand, over and over again.

Just a little point to ponder.

Possible hint that Rand will lose his hand in connection with Padan Fain?

Hmmm....

[balefire]

I'm sorry, but I don't have tEoTW with me right now, so I can't check up on that dream. But I think it has more to do with Mordeth needing someone's assistance to take him out of Shadar Logoth.

[balefire]

Something nagging me for a long time about Birgitte's case...How is it that she can be ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod just like that? It seems it's possible to cross into the waking world without gateways. Anyone has anything to say about that?

Originally posted by TimGoldenboots
There is a Diference between Rand/LTT & Birgitte/(Her Past Lives)

Granted that she was not born, but ripped from the afterlife back into the waking world... She remembers her previous lives as she had lived them not as someone elses memories(Mat) or a seperate voices in her head telling her stuff that happened. They were all her.

Rand's relationship to LTT is as if they were two diferent people with two diferent lives stuck in one body. A celestial voice mumbling in his head is more likely a product of the taint & Rand rationalizes it by thinking it is LTT. Maybe he has some memories of being LTT that are subconsciously being transfered into this looney voice to help Rand rationalize that he is not mad, but LTT is crazier than a loon. The Voice must be real to him, for is it isn't, then he is surely loosing his mind.

[QuirkyTemplate]

Rand and LTT are going to merge (becomeing super GoLewRan!). The new Dragon isn't going to be Rand, isn't going to be LTT, more of a third guy who is only semi-cool.

But probably not, as RJ has so much trouble killing off any of his characters (even a half death like this one).