Moiraine, Lanfear & Cyndane

[TimGoldenboots]

I have posted this on the other board a while ago, but it disapeared. :confused: So I guess this is for the new people & the new board. :)

OK, this is an attempt to explain where Moiraine went when she disapeared into the Twisted doorway with Lanfear. I will start with what we know.

Fact 1: Moiraine knew what would happen all the way up to her falling into the Ter'angreal. Plus one more thing that offered her some small hope about her future.

Fact 2: Right before she pushed Lanfear into the Doorway, Moiraine thought of her earlier preperation. She thought about an Angreal she had placed on the wagon. We learn that it was important for that Angreal to be there. It was shaped like a woman bent over backwards with her hands bound to her feet and that Moiraine did not like that particular Angreal.

Fact 3: Min had a viewing of Moiraine that did not come true, yet.

Fact 4: Moiraine & Lanfear both died. However, we know that while Moiraine died fithin a few minutes of entering the Doorway. Lan tells Rand during the aftermath of taht day the he felt he die through his bond to her. Lanfear, OTOH, specifically remembers being held when she arived in *finnland. Granted that Time flows diferently there, but Cyndane did not show up til PoD. That is a long time from when Lan felt Moiraine die.

Fact 5: Cyndane experienced a power drop when she was reborn. This is not consistant with any other forsaken's rebirth.

OK, so we know most of this stuff already, here is my theory. After the Breaking, there were a lot of Aes Sedai having a lot of fortellings about things that had to be done. Or there were a few Aes Sedai having a lot of them anyways. We know this because of the preperations they made at the Eye of the World, the Stone of Tear & Rhuidean. The Angreal itself was from Rhuidean. It is very posible that it was not a normal Angreal, but some kind of Angreal/ter'angreal hibrid. There was something special about it that Moiraine pointed out that she didn't like it, at any rate.

Whether it was the Angreal, the fact that they were both channeling through it when they entered or the fact they they entered simotaniously that caused it, but I think when they entered, their souls merged or got entangled somehow. Two entered, but only one body arived. The finns held her for a while either to try to figure out what had happened, or for their own reasons. * Either way, they eventually killed Lanfear & the DO reincarnated her soul but Moiraine is still trapped in it. Lanfear became the dominant soul when the DO provided her rebirth. Moiraine probably doesn't even register as a voice in her head yet. It is posible that she will eventually. Remember how LTT's voice got stronger the more Rand went into T'A'R? That could happen to Cyndane as well with Moiraine's voice. Or not.

What I think will most likely happen is taht someone, maybe Thom, will break Cyndane's Mind Trap & it will kill off Lanfear's control of the body & Moirain will take over.

* They could have forced them together to fool the DO. It is likely that finnland exists outside of the pattern & the DO couldn't see what they did there.

[Buckweet]

Hey maybe Moraine...knew it was a 3 wishes doorway so she asked for:

1) Lanfears power level
2) Kill Lanfear

and since stuff related to the Dark One has "dire circumstances"

3) Wish that her bond to Lan be broken as if she was dead.


Since she knows she'll be rescued by Thom...(letter and blue stone in his hand viewing??) She just chills in snakeland eating some chocalate cake:D

Buckweet Gaidin

[Jean]

I agree with part of what you said time, but I think Cyndane is the merged body AND soul of Lanfear and Moiraine. They're bodies could have merged into one when they entered the doorway channeling, OR the finns merged them as punishment. That would explain why Cyndane isn't as powerful as Lanfear, but is more powerful than Moiraine. It would also explain why Lanfear is the dominant soul, she's the more powerful of the two. :)

[TimGoldenboots]

Her name, "Last Chance" was definately given to her by the DO. Very consistant with someone dieing & being reborn. However, there were some inconstincies. She remembers being held by the Aelfinn, I don't think that it ever actually mentioned her dieing. Is it possible that she was held captive in *finnland, then Isam/Luc showed up & freed her they way Halima freed Moggy with basically the same instructions? Maybe that is the DO's mandatory punishment for alowing yourself to get captured. You know how these buerocracies work. Since she technically had a new body, it was necessary to give her a new name.

[plummer]

Your combined Moiraine/Lanfear theory is intriguing but I disagree. Here's my evidence.

Min had a viewing of Moiraine that has not come true - yet. When she sees Caroline Damodred she is startled by how much Caroline looks like Moiraine (I don't have my books with me so i can't be quite sure how that went, but that was my interpretation). Therefore, i assume that Min's viewing involved actually seeing Moiraine again. So, what ever has happened to Moiraine - i believe that she will show up again in the same body.

My interpretation of the Ter'angreal doorway event is that they both go through, Lanfear dies and is reborn. I'll admit i can't explain the power decrease with this - the only other time we've seen a power decrease is with the healing of Suian and Leanne. With Moiraine - i'd assumed she was burned out- which I believe would also break the bond with Lan. Her stilling may possibly feel like a death to him - he's never felt her die before so he wouldn't know what that feels like. I don't think we know what happens to Warders who's Aes Sedai 's are stilled/burned out.

So then, at some point in the future, i believe she will somehow escape the 'Finns - that tower of whatever?

Originally posted by TimGoldenboots
The Angreal itself was from Rhuidean. It is very posible that it was not a normal Angreal, but some kind of Angreal/ter'angreal hibrid. There was something special about it that Moiraine pointed out that she didn't like it, at any rate.



Hmm, my interpretation of that particular Angreal was that it was probably made by a darkfriend in the age of legends - thus it had a rather unpleasant appearence - but perhaps there is something more to it? Probably a Read And Find Out if you ask Jordan...

[TimGoldenboots]

>Her stilling may possibly feel like a death to him - he's never felt
>her die before so he wouldn't know what that feels like. I don't
>think we know what happens to Warders who's Aes Sedai 's
>are stilled/burned out.

While it has yet to be seen what happens to a warder when his Mistress is burned out/ is Stilled, we have heard that when an Aes Sedai dies, the Warder actually feels her death. At the time of the disapearance, RJ had yet to cover that. His comment to Rand was that he knew she was dead because he could no longer feel her. If that was all there was too it, I would have to agree with you. However, by the time he shows up at the Salidar camp, we got first hand knoledge of what Suiane went through both by being Stilled & regaining her power. The Link was broken & she could simply not feel her Warder. It was as if he did not exist. When she was healed the link was back & she could still feel his death through the link.

When Egwene looked into Lan's eyes, she saw that same death. While it is not ironclad proof, until proven otherwise I have to believe that death felt through the link is the same weather it is the Warder who died or the Aes Sedai. Had she simply burned out he would have simply stopped feeling her. He probably would have been sad about that, but he has seen men & women who were as close to him as Moiraine die in the past & he never lost his will to live. Why would he with her? It has to be the Link.

Plus, we get an account of whatever he told Nynaeve about feeling her death through the link made her feel sympathy for him. I am talking about Nynaeve feeling Sympathy for a MAN!!!

[Dan W]

WOW - You guys really read these books. Some of the things you talk about I must have missed. However - Isn't there a Damane who looks a lot like Moiraine? And isn't she the Daughter of the 9 moons favorite? and did the Daughter of the 9 moons say she use to be an aiesdie (sp you know a sister white tower all that)? Maybe she got kicked out in schanchen (sp again) by the finns.

Based on your comments (very indepth) I may have misread, but I am pretty sure.

Do we have any idea when the next book will be out? I heard Nov 2002 which is a long time.

Dan W.

[Dan W]

One more thing....

Who says she couldn't have died. If the DO can bring people back so can the Creator (he just usually doesn't take such an active hand).

Dan W

[Jacob]

Welcome to our humble establishment, Dan. I hope that you'll like it here. Refreshments are self served, choice limited to what you can find in your own kitchen :-)

Some people think that the former Aes Sedai now "owned" by Tuon is actually Moiraine. Myself I am not so certain. Sure, she was discribed as having features similar to Moiraines, but I think that that MIGHT be a red herring. Or not. I simply don't think that we have enough evidence one way or another yet to make more than very vague theories. What I feel speak againt this former Aes Sedai being Moiraine is the fact that Mat (among others) had actually seen her without any recognision. plus the dreamers dreams that Egwene had had about Moiraine (so we presume) and Thom (pulling out her blue stone from a fire) etc.

I don't think that the creator would bring Moiraine back from the dead. The creator himself has said that he wouldn't take any active hand in this. Both of them has said that, actually ~g~

[TimGoldenboots]

http://www.linuxmafia.com/jordan/2_nondark/2.2_rest-chars/2.2.6_moir-no-dead.html

A Loony Theory Debunked
In [WH: 14, What A Veil Hides, 324] we are introduced to Tuon's damane, one of whom is a former Aes Sedai, now called Mylen. She is described as tiny (shorter than Tuon) and pale in coloring, and "half-dead with shock and fear" when Tuon bought her.
An awful lot of people immediately leaped to the conclusion that Mylen was Moiraine, based on this description. This idea, though, is completely false.

From [WH: 19, Three Women, 403]:


Teslyn, to Mat: "'The others do be...changed.' Teslyn's mouth tightened. 'Guisin and Mylen - I did know her as Sheraine Caminelle, but she do answer only to Mylen, now - those two would betray us.'"
Teslyn knows who Mylen is (i.e., not Moiraine), and there's no reason in the world to suppose she's mistaken.

[Arawis]

Originally posted by Dan W
WOW - You guys really read these books

thats pretty much the idea on this forum ;) :D

[baxts]

damn you goldenboots, i was just looking for the quote on the mylen thing, but you beat me to it. was taking me ages to find though so i guess im too slow huh!!

[Dan W]

Ok you made your point, but.......If she is not Moraine then who is she. How will Min viewing come true if she does not come back? I will feel cheated if Jodran simply has Min recognize the new woman who "looks like Moraine" as her viewing. Goldenboots you have successfully shot down our theories, but what are yours? Or will we have to wait until November for for someone to say I told you so ;-) .

[TimGoldenboots]

DAN< I am the original author of this thread... my theory still stands... WHILE IT IS NOT BAsed on direct proof, it definatly has enough merrit to be considered...

[Dan W]

Tim < Good Theory. It makes as much sense as anything else and I would guess you are at least 50% on the mark (at least). I am sorry I did not re-read it before (it has been some time since I have been to the site). It could be that the Finn's still have her (Lan's head was pretty messed up at the time or going thru the door like that could have messed ut the bond or....). If they killed Lanfear and held her that would indicate that they are on the side of the light, although that has never really been established in the books (at least that I remember). She may simply be released later or rescued by the "boys". Jordan could do just about anything. Anything is possiable in his head. Maybe we all dreamed her death ;-) .

[SoulAegis]

Since Cyndane, when reborn, felt a dramatic drop in her power level, perhaps she gained Moiraine's ability, and Moiraine took her power, or something? Moiraine was nowhere near the power of Lanfear. Of course, this doesn't explain anything, I just started rereading WH and it was definitely the most unmemorable book I've ever read.... nothing happened except a lot of busy work, I guess. So I really don't remember anything about Cyndane or Tylen or anyone new, just what you guys have said in the forum here is all I know.

[GWINNA]

Dude, how can you not love the last half of that book?

[BenIII]

Cyndane said nothing about a dramatic drop, just a drop. I didn't particularly care for WH either.......I even liked PoD.

[GWINNA]

well what if it was an average thing like so the current power for both was (M+L)/2 or some variation of it.

[BenIII]

Perhaps, but that's just if you believe that Lanfear and Moraine merged.........

[GWINNA]

well aren't we arguing for and against that theory, you say it can't happen because :X and I try to disprove X, and conversly.

[Mael]

All interesting. here is my theory to chew on.

Mouraine studied the Ter'angreal at Tear that did something like the one from Rhuidein, so she would have to come across the two finns. And, more importantly how to deal with them.
So, Lanfear and Mouraine go through the portal, and bam, one of two things happens:

1. Mouraine some how gets the upper hand and kills Lanfear (Slips a knife in between the ribs while restling)
2. the Finns break up the fight/ they are teleported seperatly as was Rand/Mat/Mouraine in the first one.

If she kills Lanfear, that offers easy explination as to why Lanfear got a new body. As for being weaker, well, Lanfear always was arrogant about her powers, and maybe this was the DO's way of taking her down a notch.

If she does not kill Lanfear, then Lanfear, in all her infinite wisdom and knowledge, gets too arrogant and mad, pisses the finns off, or simply asks to be transported back, but the price was to be her life. Something along the lines of what happened to Mat.

Either way, Mouraine is brought to the same room and people Mat was, but having been a Caheirien, and an AWESOME player of Daes'damar, she manupiltated her way out. As for Lan, well, first thoughts was that Lanfear may have Severed her from the source, but Leane and Suian felt their Warders death after being healed. So maybe one of the prices for living was that she would have the source stripped from her. Or, she was hung out like Mat, and some one strolled along, saved her. But, as for her not being at Rand's side, it has not been that long since she went. Maybe a year, and it takes time.

[TimGoldenboots]

It is made very unclear what happened to them as they passed through the gateway. However, when we do see from Cyndane's point of view, all she mentions in her thoughts were related to teh *finns holding her captive for some time. While I will admit that her OP reduction is very consistant with someone being stilled and healed by someone of the same sex, she never mentiones having been severed or having to fight with Moiraine once she made it into *finn-land.
I would have thought that being severed would be the worse thing that had ever happened to her other than perhaps dieing and being reborn which she also doesn't mention having happened... I mean the only thing she seemed mad about was being held captive there... doesn't that seem odd?

Another thing of note, not offered as proof one way or another, but it has been a coupld of books since RJ has introduced any new concepts into the story line.

Healing the Taint was always expected(If not by that method), The Gholam was first mentioned in LoC. I cannot think of any new concepts that he has given us since that... But I think we are due.

[GWINNA]

Well we only get a few lines from her pov, I'm sure alot of stuff went unsaid.

[Reuvyn]

It is possible that Lanfear was not killed and rather stilled and healed by saidar which would acount the loss in power. As we see when Nanaeve heals Siuan there was a loss in power but when she healed a male there was no loss. Plus, the opposite when the black tower healed some Aes sedai they were back to normal.

[Reuvyn]

Maybe moriaine didnt die or get stilled and she just covered the bond and wrote the letter to convince him to go to Merille who would pass it to Nynaeave (to one who will ahve just earned the shawl or something like that she tells to Lan when they are looking up prophesies in book2 or 3)

The covering of the bond especially when far away (different world of the AELFINN) when it is weakened may simulate death.


I think birgette got nervous when Elayne covered the bond in WH
maybe she thought she died?

Anyway Lan only thought she died but she didn't

[GWINNA]

I doubt it, the way the bond breaks is diffrent when the Aes Sedia dies. I think she was either severed or killed but she still got three wishes anyway.

[TimGoldenboots]

Too many things need more explanation from RJ... I like my theory here because it is a version that tries to fit everything back into a neat little package. I cannot see any other way for things to unfold, but I am a mere mortal here and RJ is truely the creator. But if this is not true, the I have some questions that I will be very interested in hearing...

Did Lanfear die and be reborn? If yes, who killed her? She was apparently only upset about the *finns holding her captive... if they had killed her afterward, it seems like she would have mentioned that... I mean, which is worse?

If she did not die, then how did she get a new body? Whatever happened to her, it was pointed out that it was diferent than the other fallen forsaken because if the power drop...

Also, what is the significance of the "Mind Trap"? Literature generally doesn't add anomolies unless they have some significance... I mean, clearly it is a means of controlling people, but why did RJ make it so specific to destroying the mind? I mean, would it not have been more eficient for him to simply have it cause sudden death as opposed to turning someone into a vegetable if the thing were broken? My main point here is this. RJ would not have added this threat unless he intended on following through with it and actuallt breaking one of the Mind Traps. I can even provide a motive to break Cyndane/Lanfear's mindtrap, but it would be more appropriate to put that information in the who sent slayer thread. Hopefully in the next book this gets resolved so we can all move on... But the way the mindtrap works, it does provide a very explainable way for Moiraine to re-enter the story and we can all relax about that as well... :)