what about Verin?

[nightfairy]

From what I've noticed, both online & off, everyone seems to overlook Verin's place in the storyline. And yet, RJ keeps throwing in these weird twists to her character.

OK, somehow, I forget how, Verin was the one person who knew about the fortelling that Siuan & Moiraine witnessed when they were Accepted & that they were charged by then Amyrlin Tamra to seek out the Dragon Reborn. Verin was the only one who knew about this & yet was not bound by it.

She has skillfully managed to keep a modicum of authority among the sisters-even Cadsuane- while just barely avoiding stepping on any toes, and has even managed to stay on the fringes of pretty much all the politically charged Aes Sedai cliques.

Then we learn that her "special talent" has something to do with dipping deep into the psyche & programming hidden agendas into another so the other person thinks it was all her own idea. (when she was "interviewing" the sisters that were apprenticed by Rand to the Wise Ones. RIGHT before all the sisters <even the reds, to everyone's amazement> chose OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL to swear fealty to Rand) This "talent" alone is fascinating; does it only work on sisters? Those that can channel?

THEN there was that thing about her almost poisoning Cadsuane in Winters Heart, What the #$?!* was that all about? Was it a truth syrum? A fatal brew?

How much does Verin really know? What exactly is her alliance? (I dont think she's allied to anyone, personally) Yes, she could be black Ajah, but that's too predictable an answer, I think. She's definately trying to steer things into a specific direction, but where? She's too easily overlooked. Any opinions on this?

[Jean]

Something else strange about her, she was able to channel, or so it appeared, in a Stedding. I think it's TGH when the Elders ask her to look a Ogier who'd been touched by Maichin Shin. She put her hand on him and said he felt empty. She HAD to channel to do that. Now, how could she channel in a Stedding?

Maybe those theories about there being "friends of the light" are true.

[GWINNA]

Originally posted by Jean
Something else strange about her, she was able to channel, or so it appeared, in a Stedding. I think it's TGH when the Elders ask her to look a Ogier who'd been touched by Maichin Shin. She put her hand on him and said he felt empty. She HAD to channel to do that. Now, how could she channel in a Stedding?

Maybe those theories about there being "friends of the light" are true.
she probably had a well, would be an obvious guess now that we know wells exist.

[Buckweet]

She chose not to poison Cadsuane when she heard that Cadsuane was looking out for the good of the "boy"


If there is such a flaming thing as Light Friends...she's one of them. I dont think she is bound by the same oaths as the rest of the Aes Sedai...but she has to be sworn to something to have the face thing going on.... Maybe the are Friends of the light and there hand sign is touching there nose with both index fingers while walking a straight line.

~Buckweet Gaidin

[nightfairy]

I dont agree. I dont think Verin opted out of poisoning Cadsuane because she realized Cadsuane was looking out for the "boy". Besides, I think Verin is wise enough to realize that many people who may have his best interests at heart may still be working towards an end that conflicts with her own, & I dont think she would hesitate to take one of them out if she felt it necessary.

I do believe (cant reference it at present because my copy of WH is out on loan) that Verin chose not to proceed with poisoning Cadsuane because Cadsuane indicated she was feeling loose of the tongue at that moment. Either Verin realized she did not / might not have to give her something to make her divulge certain valuable info, or she was planning on killing her & decided not to in favor of maybe hitting her up for some killer info (no pun intended).

[Jean]

Originally posted by G.W.I.N.N.A

she probably had a well, would be an obvious guess now that we know wells exist.

Maybe...but the Ogier ASK her to go touch him, and the give each other strange looks. Maybe the Ogier Elders know something more about Verin.

[magatsu17]

It didn't say she channeled. I myself can touch something and know if it was innanimate and i can't channel. Obviously this was something the Ogier could tell with out being able to channel, humans can do that to.

Obviously she is trust worthy cause Min saw her in Rands hand just like the other Aes Sedai.

This skill she has is nothing but compulsion. It's not something unheard of or a new found skill. She said she learned from other sister who had developed these tricks when they were wilders before the Tower stopped them from using it. But the Forsaken use it all the time. Especially Grandel and Rahvin.

It's obvious to me she's just trying to help Rand reach the last battle the best way he can.

[JoJo]

go check out stonedog's essay on verin at www.stonedoge.org - pretty cool stuff!

[elfnmagik]

It's obvious to me she's just trying to help Rand reach the last battle the best way he can.

yes but what i think night fairy is talking about ,is not only is she on Rand's side or not, but that if she is a "good guy" ...what steps, measure, actions will she take to ensure his destiny.....ie do the ends justify the means? if she kills an innocent to help him does that make her evil?.. and why is she taking steps so not like the brown ajah?:confused:

[GWINNA]

Originally posted by elfnmagik


yes but what i think night fairy is talking about ,is not only is she on Rand's side or not, but that if she is a "good guy" ...what steps, measure, actions will she take to ensure his destiny.....ie do the ends justify the means? if she kills an innocent to help him does that make her evil?.. and why is she taking steps so not like the brown ajah?:confused:
Because Verin isn't realy Verin. I have a theory that Verin is actual some realy old Aes Sedia(who didn't take all three oaths or otherwise extended her life) probably that dreamer chick who lasted used taht dreaming ring

[JoJo]

Originally posted by G.W.I.N.N.A

Because Verin isn't realy Verin. I have a theory that Verin is actual some realy old Aes Sedia(who didn't take all three oaths or otherwise extended her life) probably that dreamer chick who lasted used taht dreaming ring

adding to gwinna's theory:

1. they say that dreaming AS died/disappeared testing dream ter'angreal....

2. she was sent to finnland and subsequently escaped, creating the "Verin" personality thereafter....

3. Verin will reenter finnland with a ta'veren or two and rescue moiraine!!

woo hoo! score another for crackpot theories everywhere!

[GWINNA]

Originally posted by JoJo


adding to gwinna's theory:

1. they say that dreaming AS died/disappeared testing dream ter'angreal....

2. she was sent to finnland and subsequently escaped, creating the "Verin" personality thereafter....

3. Verin will reenter finnland with a ta'veren or two and rescue moiraine!!

woo hoo! score another for crackpot theories everywhere!
Oh, I've got one!
Crackpot theory #10984
Verin is Moraine!
See, she escapes from Finnland but is mysteriously transported into the past where she must sit back and let her past self do somethings and only intervers where she remembers interfering. Of couse somehow she got a new body. That is as crackpot as Al Gore!:D

[TimGoldenboots]

Has anybody noticed that Verin's character changed somewhere between TDR(Book III) & LoC(Book VI)? The first time we get to see into her head, was in TDR when she gave Egwene that dream ter'angreal. Then she was a sterio-typical Blond I mean Brown. She thought about the notes that she found with the ring, she had considered giving them to Egwene, but also considered burning them... by the end of the thought she had forgotten about the ring, egwene & the BA an was thinking about something else... In the same book, Egwene mentioned that she once had to bring a cloak to Verin because it was raining & apparently Verin didn't realize it.

Now fast forward to the next look into her psyche. In LoC, she is sharp & intentional & her dim-whittedness is all a ruse that she uses to keep people off guard. That is the first time I remember reading about her "Bird-like" stare. From that point on every action & thought she takes is intentional & every thought in her head has a purpose that is eventually leading to some unknown goal that she somehow planed some 70 years ago.

[Buckweet]

Originally posted by TimGoldenboots
Then she was a sterio-typical Blond I mean Brown. She


ROFLMAO!!!!!

[balefire]

Originally posted by nightfairy
From what I've noticed, both online & off, everyone seems to overlook Verin's place in the storyline. And yet, RJ keeps throwing in these weird twists to her character.

I didn't miss the weirdness to Verin. I knew there was something strange about her, but couldn't tell what.

Originally posted by nightfairy
OK, somehow, I forget how, Verin was the one person who knew about the fortelling that Siuan & Moiraine witnessed when they were Accepted & that they were charged by then Amyrlin Tamra to seek out the Dragon Reborn. Verin was the only one who knew about this & yet was not bound by it.

She has skillfully managed to keep a modicum of authority among the sisters-even Cadsuane- while just barely avoiding stepping on any toes, and has even managed to stay on the fringes of pretty much all the politically charged Aes Sedai cliques.

I think she wasn't present, that's why she was not bound in any way. More like she got wind of it somehow. As for her authority, I think she's quite senior in the Tower.

Originally posted by nightfairy
Then we learn that her "special talent" has something to do with dipping deep into the psyche & programming hidden agendas into another so the other person thinks it was all her own idea. (when she was "interviewing" the sisters that were apprenticed by Rand to the Wise Ones. RIGHT before all the sisters <even the reds, to everyone's amazement> chose OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL to swear fealty to Rand) This "talent" alone is fascinating; does it only work on sisters? Those that can channel?

I wasn't surprised at her use of that highly sophisticated brand of Compulsion. After all, Aes Sedai always want to control what people think. The interesting bit is that somehow the victim will die within a span of time. "She might die inside a year, or in 10, but the weave itself would not harm her." Why?
I think she on the Light's side, but her methods may be different from everyone else's, & I think she does have some secret agenda of her own which, while not exactly evil, are probably not to everyone's liking either.

[nightfairy]

YES! THAT is what Ive been trying to get at all this time! Its that weird, there's something about her feeling, but its always weird to me that no one else seems to really see it.

I had forgotton about that "death" clause in the compulsion thing, thats really f-ed up. Do you think it is compulsion, or delving?

[balefire]

Originally posted by nightfairy
YES! THAT is what Ive been trying to get at all this time! Its that weird, there's something about her feeling, but its always weird to me that no one else seems to really see it.

I had forgotton about that "death" clause in the compulsion thing, thats really f-ed up. Do you think it is compulsion, or delving?

I think it's a type of Compulsion, but not the "normal" 1 that's been used by the Forsaken & Light knows who else in the War of Power. "Of course it was not Compulsion as ancient texts described it." The "original" Compulsion is "a complicated weave of Spirit...(with bits of Air & Water)". Sorry,can't remember the 2nd half of that quote; it's been a while since I last read The Shadow Rising. Anyway, the standard old Compulsion has only 3 flows, but Verin's special recipe incorporates all 5, although most of it is "skeins of Spirit that had to be further divided & placed with an intricacy to boggle a weaver of fine carpets". I think that's why Verin's weave has all those side effects, such as killing the subject with time, not working well on men, trust of the subject being required etc. It's not Delving; the old use of the term refers to searching for ores with Earth (I think) but the modern use refers to scanning a patient with Healing flows to check their health. Another difference between Compulsion & Verin's weave is that Compulsion can be seen clearly around anybody's head, but Verin's weave sinks into the person's brain & is subsequently almost undetectable. "Only the most careful Delving would show that anything had been done, & not even that would identify the weave. Verin had tested that, & no one surpassed her at Delving, even if she did say so herself." Also, the weave doesn't seem to impose the channeler's will directly on the subject, but relies on the subject being able to rationalize the fact that she is carrying out commands implanted in her mind by thinking it's all her own idea. "Beldeine would have to find the reasons inside herself for obeying, otherwise this would have been so much wasted effort."
I'm sorry if some of those quotes aren't correct word-for-word, but I don't have any of the books & I'm spinning them out from memory.

[Mann]

No it's just an inefficient method of compulsion. Aka Liandrins version but improved ( as Liandrin has less control only making people want to obey, not force them to). Verin put it together by putting together and studying wilders weaves. The forsaken use it more skillfully. And the forsaken's weaving can be even harder to detect (eg Rahvin) if they want. It is also mentioned that Verins weaving will not kill in and of itself, but can in its effects. ie. Following Rand is not death but it is dangerous, and could lead to death. Thus it doesn't violate the three oaths.

[balefire]

Originally posted by Mann
No it's just an inefficient method of compulsion. Aka Liandrins version but improved ( as Liandrin has less control only making people want to obey, not force them to). Verin put it together by putting together and studying wilders weaves. The forsaken use it more skillfully. And the forsaken's weaving can be even harder to detect (eg Rahvin) if they want. It is also mentioned that Verins weaving will not kill in and of itself, but can in its effects. ie. Following Rand is not death but it is dangerous, and could lead to death. Thus it doesn't violate the three oaths.
It was written that Verin's weave wasn't the same as Compulsion. Besides, it's a lot more subtle, although it does have all those drawbacks described. Rahvin made his weave undetectable by letting it evaporate shortly after use, otherwise it would be visible to any male channeler. You seem to imply that Verin's weave kills the sisters by making them follow Rand. I always thought it was some side-effect of the weave. Well, it was ambiguous enough, so I don't have anything to say on the matter.

[Mann]

Verin sys it MAY end up killing the subject, so it seems sensible that they might not die, but following Rand is pretty hazardess.
*Shrugs*. BTW it was stated that there are manyforms of compulsion early on in tFoH, where Graendal is mistress of them (inluding the subtler forms). IMHO.
:D

[nightfairy]

Are you insinuating that Verin may be Graendal? Hmm. Interesting. Hmm.

[Berk]

Impossible that Verin is Graendal. The forsaken were not let loose till the end of book 2, which is why there was a three month break between books 2 and 3. Plus we have seen Verin's POV throughtout the series, in book 3, book 6, book 9.

[Mann]

Ah if only. ROTFLMO

No it was just an illustration of types of compulsion.

[Dancing_Dead]

Okay, let's start with what we know isn't true:

1. Verin is not Black Ajah. If she is, she is so monumentally stupid, she might as well be an ordinary Aes Sedai. She has had so many opportunities to mess with Rand and company - even to kill them outright - and she has skipped them all. I know the Black Ajah are scheming little bastards, but no one is so convoluted in their thinking that they would pass up an opportunity to win the whole war with one well-placed dagger, weave, or word.

3. Verin is not forsaken. She just isn't powerful enough. And none of the forsaken are that stupid. Except maybe Asmodean.

2. Verin is not quite an "ordinary" Aes Sedai, either. Why? She lies in Book Two, claiming that Moraine sent her to Rand when Moraine didn't.

So, what do we know? We know Verin is trying to help Rand, at least as much as any Aes Sedai is trying to help the poor guy. I personally ascribe to the "Purpe Ajah" theory. Verin is on Rand's side, but in her own way, and belonging to her own faction, that may well consist only of her.

[balefire]

Originally posted by Dancing_Dead
Okay, let's start with what we know isn't true:

2. Verin is not quite an "ordinary" Aes Sedai, either. Why? She lies in Book Two, claiming that Moraine sent her to Rand when Moraine didn't.

So, what do we know? We know Verin is trying to help Rand, at least as much as any Aes Sedai is trying to help the poor guy. I personally ascribe to the "Purpe Ajah" theory. Verin is on Rand's side, but in her own way, and belonging to her own faction, that may well consist only of her.

I doubt the Purple theory because there's no sign of it. Even the Black Ajah was rumoured about although no definite proof was found. Nothing can be so well hidden even rumours of it don't arise. I'm more inclined to think Verin is up to something, but is not Black. I think she has her own ways to get Rand to save the world, as do Moiraine & Cadsuane (that bitch!). She knew about Moiraine & Siuan's plans from TGH, & she was permitted to "join the gang". I think she just wants to save the world like every other non-Black sister, just that she has her own agenda in mind as well.

[Pope Trevor]

Verin is obviously somebody special. Why not a 'lightfriend' (i'm assuming that 'purple ajah' is basically the same thing)

In WOT, everything has an opposite, why don't darkfriends?

Verin does things her own way, but in the end, they tend to serve Rand.

Although all Aes Sedai have their own agend, Verin's seems to be more oriented toward helping the 'good' guys.

And she seems to be able to bypass the Three Oaths to do so.

[balefire]

Originally posted by Pope Trevor
Verin is obviously somebody special. Why not a 'lightfriend' (i'm assuming that 'purple ajah' is basically the same thing)

In WOT, everything has an opposite, why don't darkfriends?

Because the good guys we can see eg Rand, Elayne, Nynaeve etc. count as Lightfriends.

Originally posted by Pope Trevor
And she seems to be able to bypass the Three Oaths to do so.

I've seen some examples of those, but I'm not sure if they're conclusive evidence. I can't remember, so mind quoting something?

[Pope Trevor]

The good guys, like Rand, don't count as lightfriends any more than the Forsaken are darkfriends.

The main characters are the major players for good's side, kinda like the opposite to the Forsaken. (Notice there's 13 Forsaken, and 13 main characters)

Darkfriends are more minor players, and so assumably so are lightfriends.

As to examples of Verin breaking the oaths, i've just kinda picked that up from listening to other people, so i'm not entirely sure what the examples are....:(

[balefire]

Originally posted by Pope Trevor
The good guys, like Rand, don't count as lightfriends any more than the Forsaken are darkfriends.

The main characters are the major players for good's side, kinda like the opposite to the Forsaken. (Notice there's 13 Forsaken, and 13 main characters)

Darkfriends are more minor players, and so assumably so are lightfriends.

By the Pit, Forsaken are Darkfriends!! If you mean minor Darkfriends like some stupid Whitecloak then basically anyone who isn't Dark counts. Of course it's less clear-cut than Darkfriends because humans aren't exactly good. I mean, there're creatures like Shadowspawn that are totally evil, but there's no being (the Creator doesn't count since he doesn't do anything) that's totally good.

I've heard of the 13 main characters thing, but can't really tell who the 13 are. Care to list the lot?

[Pope Trevor]

The Forsaken aren't really darkfriends. They're quite a bit more than darkfriends.

And while no human is completely good, no human is completely evil either....

And not anyone who isn't a darkfriend isn't automatically a lightfriend. Just like there are a lot of bad or even evil people who don't swear their soul to the DO, there will be many good people who don't swear their soul to good, or wherever they may swear it to...

The thriteen main characters are:

Rand and his many womens, Mat, Perrin, Faile, Nynaeve, Lan, Moriane, Egwene, Loial and Thom.

[balefire]

Originally posted by Pope Trevor
The Forsaken aren't really darkfriends. They're quite a bit more than darkfriends.

They're still Darkfriends by definition, even if they're very high-level ones.

Originally posted by Pope Trevor
And while no human is completely good, no human is completely evil either....

Wrong there....I can think of some people who're so evil they have no redeeming value. Fain springs rather quickly to mind, even before Mordeth got him.

Originally posted by Pope Trevor
And not anyone who isn't a darkfriend isn't automatically a lightfriend. Just like there are a lot of bad or even evil people who don't swear their soul to the DO, there will be many good people who don't swear their soul to good, or wherever they may swear it to...

Yep, but I don't think there's a Lightfriend circle around, simply because nobody's that good as to dedicate themselves to the Light without thought for anything else. Moiraine probably comes closest to this, but even so her personal interests in the Tower etc come into the picture.

Originally posted by Pope Trevor
The thriteen main characters are:

Rand and his many womens, Mat, Perrin, Faile, Nynaeve, Lan, Moriane, Egwene, Loial and Thom.

Faile?! How disappointing.

[nightfairy]

Yeah, I know, I've heard this 13 main character thing before, but I dont really consider Lan, Avienda, Min, Moiraine, Thom or Faile as main characters. They are more like supporting characters. (Although I'd like to see RJ put more emphasis on Lan, Avienda, Thom & Min, he hasnt really gone too far into their characters). Although he sometimes seems to give them some focus, they dont get nearly as much play as the Emond's Fielders or Elayne. Also, as much as I want to say Moiraine is a main character (she sure seemed to be in the early part of the series), can you consider someone a main character who has been absent for more than 1/2 the series? And Faile doesnt seem to be much more than a supporting character to Perrin. I've also heard people consider Birgitte a main character. She probably is as prominant a character as Thom, dont you think? I could probably say the same thing about a comparison b/t Avienda & Siuan.

On the other hand, there are so many characters & plotlines going now, its probably pretty hard to give equal attention to all of them.

[Larkin]

Moiraine wasn't in the last couple of books?

Well, if she wasn't there in person, she most definately was talked about more than any other absanty.

Rand misses her

Nynve hates her, then doesn't, then hates her some more, with a little grudging respect in there as well.

Thom sighs and thinks not so happy thoughts about the woman he didn't know until she was gone.

If thats not enough, In one of the books, a cousin of her's (that just happens to look so much like her as to be able to pass as her twin sister) just pops right out of nowhere to remind us she's still there.

She's always been the one controling things from behind the scenes, she's just taken it to the "next level." A sorta "Super Sedia" without the pointy yellow hair.

[Urbal T]

Come on folks! Having a group of people act for good under the web of a normal lifestyle is a classic! Sometimes they're right out in front, like the rebellion in Star Wars, but sometimes they're not. They're the people who do a lot for good because the public can't be bothered with such things. I think "Lightfriends" do exist. Unlike Darkfriends, I think they're a lot like wilders, organizationally. They're people who see the truth of what's happening around them. Darkfriends are more organized because if they weren't, they would all disband. Lightfriends are different. Like wilders, it's kind of a destiny sort of thing. They may not even realize what they're doing. Lightfriends probably will never be revealed in WoT because they're not organized like darkfriends. They're just people who understand what good is and decide to help it. Then again, I could be wrong.

--Urbal T