Egwene and the Suldam

[magatsu17]

What do you think's gonna happen when Mat and those Suldam who trained Egwene and brought face to face with the her as the Amyrlin seat?? Should prove to be some interesting reading.

[Jacob]

Any reading with Mat in it is interesting reading, so that is given. I wonder about those Sul dam being brought before Egwene though. Reasonably, it SHOULD happen sooner or later, but I have these fancy's in my mind that it will be later. That Teslyn will swear to Mat (it's in fashion to Swear oaths now and all) and perhaps train those Sul dam which would swear to him too...maybe. But I have lots of wild fancies:)

If those two Sul dam were to be brought before Egwene though, in the state they are now, I could see them banging their forheads to the floor in front of her and generally be VERY afraid. Egwene herself though, I'm less sure about. She's getting less and less likable by the book. Some of this could probably be due to the influence of "Halima", but partly I think that it's as simple as that she's turning into a bitch character. She might simply be very cold about the matter. Or this could be the thing that breaks that cold hard bitchy wall she's been building up. (refered to as "strength" in the books)

[GWINNA]

Originally posted by Jacob
Any reading with Mat in it is interesting reading, so that is given. I wonder about those Sul dam being brought before Egwene though. Reasonably, it SHOULD happen sooner or later, but I have these fancy's in my mind that it will be later. That Teslyn will swear to Mat (it's in fashion to Swear oaths now and all) and perhaps train those Sul dam which would swear to him too...maybe. But I have lots of wild fancies:)

If those two Sul dam were to be brought before Egwene though, in the state they are now, I could see them banging their forheads to the floor in front of her and generally be VERY afraid. Egwene herself though, I'm less sure about. She's getting less and less likable by the book. Some of this could probably be due to the influence of "Halima", but partly I think that it's as simple as that she's turning into a bitch character. She might simply be very cold about the matter. Or this could be the thing that breaks that cold hard bitchy wall she's been building up. (refered to as "strength" in the books)
I think all the cahrecters are getting harder, but why does everyone think that when Rand gets cold and hard thats ok but when the women do it their being bitches. What are you afraid of?

[magatsu17]

I like the fact that Egwene is getting harder. But what I don't like about her is that she who grew up with Rand and who kinda supposed to be on his side think's she can give Rand guidence about anything like she's so expeirenced.

And what's up with that Bargain Elayne and Nyneve made. It's by far the stupidest thing anyone has done in the series. Besides Elaida's kidnapping of rand ofcourse

[JoJo]

i totally agree with you, magatsu17. egwene used to be my favorite character early on. she was so naive i looked forward to her growth as a character. but while everyone else has gained a little bit of depth, i still see her as the silly little girl she was when she left Emond's Field. at times it feels like she is holding everyone else back - in a bad way.

[Jacob]

I don't think that Rand and Egwene get's cold and hard in the same way, GWINNA. Okay, for one, I see more reason for Rand to get cold and hard. More need. And really, it's not the hardness as such that I mind in Egwene, not the strength. She's not one of RJ's best characters I think. Rand is hard and strong, but there is some differance there. I guess you could say that Rand is still sentimental while Egwene is not. Rand thinks of his past and remembers it even though he does his best not to show it in order to pretect his people. Egwene simply doesn't seem to care one bit about her past. She's becomeing that distant, aloof and manipulating part of the White Tower that's been the bad part of the tower. And she doesn't seem to have the slightest bit of consious about it, which Rand shows. And she has alot more reason in my mind. The "I know better" attitude is of course more than a bit annoying too. The Aes Sedei that she reprisents simply isn't a kind that I like. I also agree abit with the lack of growth and depth of her charecter. When I think of her, I am often minded of when a 5 y.o. girl tells you all grown uplike what should and should not be, knowing it all already.

No, the Aes Sedai that stands heads and shoulders higher than just about all the rest is still Moiraine. She was strong, no doubt about that. She could do seemingly cold things, but there was still a feeling that she _cared_ and I've never thought of her charecter as being bitchy. Neither did she have anywhere near as strong "I know best" streak, especially in the end. I want Moraine back!

[GWINNA]

Well she has gotten a little egotistical but then so has everyone else except Perrin and maybe Mat. If you recall Rand beleives that since he is the dragon reborn he can do anything. But you must keep in mind that she is still relativly young yet and this was thrusted on her somewhat unpreparedly. She has manged to humble Aes Sedia and get her way which is commendable. I think the problem lies in that in the last book she came off extremely diffrent in an evil sort of way. But think about, she's been having cronic painfull headaches and sessions of compulsion to deal with thanks to a certain transgender forsaken. She will probably end up either being rescued by someone or turn into a lando(from Babylon 5, towards the end) charecter. Besides she is more capable and deserveing of ego than other Aes Sedia because of her training with the Wise Ones.

[JoJo]

speaking of moiraine, does anyone know if RJ has committed an answer to whether or not she will return? iim not a devout redear of the RJ interview/book signing/chat transcripts, so i dont know.

on a similar thread of thought, you guys should all check out a theory/essay written by stonedog at http://www.stonedog.org/wot/Moiraine.htm which gives a pretty good reason for her return. check out stonedog's other essays if you like, i find them very funny and interesting. (his site is also the way i found my way to wotism.org for the first time!)

[GWINNA]

Originally posted by JoJo
speaking of moiraine, does anyone know if RJ has committed an answer to whether or not she will return? iim not a devout redear of the RJ interview/book signing/chat transcripts, so i dont know.

on a similar thread of thought, you guys should all check out a theory/essay written by stonedog at http://www.stonedog.org/wot/Moiraine.htm which gives a pretty good reason for her return. check out stonedog's other essays if you like, i find them very funny and interesting. (his site is also the way i found my way to wotism.org for the first time!)
That was on of the first sites I came across when I first started looking for WOT stuff on the web! I haven't been there in a while though.

[Jean]

Originally posted by G.W.I.N.N.A

I think all the cahrecters are getting harder, but why does everyone think that when Rand gets cold and hard thats ok but when the women do it their being bitches. What are you afraid of?

I think that Egwene is getting cold and hard simply because she wants to show everyone that she has the maturity to be the Amrylin Seat. Anything but being cold and hard would seem to be an obvious weakness and her position is uncertain as it is.

[Jacob]

I still liked Siun Sanche alot better as Amyrlin and I never thought HER as being bitchy. She was hard, but I never felt that she had that hybris rash that is itching Egwene all over.

Also, we've seen more than one occation where Egwene has lied to her friends, even done a really nasty thing, in order to protect her lies. An example would be when she made those trollocs appear to ripp Nynaeves clothes off in the tower, ripping into her body leaving scratch marks on her body. She did this to one of her best friends to "distract" her so that she wouldn't think to ask the Wise Ones about Egwenes training, thus (unknowing) giving away that Egwene was breaking their command about not going to the world of dreams while she was sick, something which would cause the wise ones to stop their trianing. She put a friend through a horrifying experience simply to protect her lies, that doesn't make her a very nice person in my eyes and if I dissliked her (character) before, it's been much more since that happend.

[Jacob]

Originally posted by JoJo
[snip...] you guys should all check out a theory/essay written by stonedog at http://www.stonedog.org/wot/Moiraine.htm which gives a pretty good reason for her return. check out stonedog's other essays if you like, i find them very funny and interesting. (his site is also the way i found my way to wotism.org for the first time!)

Stonedogs site is one of the best out there, I think. I'd like to have some things that he has, including those musings about the charecters etc on this site one day. Once we get the WOTsite link composed and published, his site will be there. Reasons or not though, I think that it's quite clear that she will be back. One thing that I don't think he mentions is Min's viewing, which may be the strongest piece of evidence that she is to return: Min's viewing stating that Rand can't win the last battle without a woman that is dead. Min's viewings are never ever wrong, though she thinks that this one is. Of course it isn't! Of course Moiraine isn't *really* dead, even though most seems to think so. I wonder though, if Moiraine IS still in the land of the *Finn's. Most evidence would say so, but then there is the case of the Damne Who Used To Be Aes Sedai now owned by Tuon. The physical discription of her fits Moiraine's profile very well. But I tend to believe that this is simply a red herring thrown in by RJ to throw us off and create uncertainty.

OT:

There is a short story on StoneDog's site called >Little miss goodnight</i> that is simply amazing. I read that story for the first time about three years ago and it had a large impact on me. Much more of an impact than most books I've read before or since. I recommend it to anyone with the least bit of a sappy bone in their body. Even those who may not know that they have one:)

[JoJo]

cool! im not the only stonedog fan here! three cheers for that goofy, thoughtful man of the waste!

[magatsu17]

Originally posted by Jacob
I still liked Siun Sanche alot better as Amyrlin and I never thought HER as being bitchy. She was hard, but I never felt that she had that hybris rash that is itching Egwene all over.

Also, we've seen more than one occation where Egwene has lied to her friends, even done a really nasty thing, in order to protect her lies. An example would be when she made those trollocs appear to ripp Nynaeves clothes off in the tower, ripping into her body leaving scratch marks on her body. She did this to one of her best friends to "distract" her so that she wouldn't think to ask the Wise Ones about Egwenes training, thus (unknowing) giving away that Egwene was breaking their command about not going to the world of dreams while she was sick, something which would cause the wise ones to stop their trianing. She put a friend through a horrifying experience simply to protect her lies, that doesn't make her a very nice person in my eyes and if I dissliked her (character) before, it's been much more since that happend.

I think that was more for Nyneve's protection that as a distraction. Nyneve had told egwene that she had been entering the world of dreams to explore and egwere did something that I think Nyneve needs more of, she taught her a lesson that she needed. Some times to protect some one from a greater threat you give them a smaller one I myself had no trouble with that. I think alot of the character's could do with a lil more of that.

[Jacob]

I don't think it was to be a "lesson", atleast not as a primary objective. If anyone were to give me such a lesson (not that it's possible) I would do very serious bodily harm (really) to that person and that person would be my friend no longer. Egwene also used that incident, her greater ability in tel'aran'rhiod
to gain a permanent upper hand on Nynaeve. After that moment, she contiously bully Nynaeve around, about everything because Nynaeve is afraid of that one instance. As I remember, Egwene was quite jubilant when she realised that she could pull that off. Not something you do with a friend.

You're explanation that she did it to protect her from greater harm by giving a smaller one seems abit like putting a girl through a mock rape attempt in order to show her that she's at risk of being raped :O

[Jacob]

Originally posted by JoJo
cool! im not the only stonedog fan here! three cheers for that goofy, thoughtful man of the waste!

Stonedog is the man:) Or should I say _A_man. And as everyone knows, all men have flaws...

Stonedogs sin is....he's also got an (awardwinning!) buffy page! :O

[magatsu17]

Originally posted by Jacob
I don't think it was to be a "lesson", atleast not as a primary objective. If anyone were to give me such a lesson (not that it's possible) I would do very serious bodily harm (really) to that person and that person would be my friend no longer. Egwene also used that incident, her greater ability in tel'aran'rhiod
to gain a permanent upper hand on Nynaeve. After that moment, she contiously bully Nynaeve around, about everything because Nynaeve is afraid of that one instance. As I remember, Egwene was quite jubilant when she realised that she could pull that off. Not something you do with a friend.

You're explanation that she did it to protect her from greater harm by giving a smaller one seems abit like putting a girl through a mock rape attempt in order to show her that she's at risk of being raped :O


Eqwene herself was put through a similar situation fram Amys when she enter Tel'ah'roid with out permission. She herself was teaching a similar thing to Nyneve. And if i thought my sister was putting herself in a situation that could get her raped. but the only way i could show her was to put her through a mock rape. I wouldn't hesitate to do that for my sister. I love my sisters very much and I'm very protective of them. But to scare them was all I had to do to keep them from a rape. I would do in a second. Some times hard lessons need to be taught in a hard way

[balefire]

I think that aloof, uncaring attitude is a rub-off from those Salidar bitches she's been hanging out with. As Aviendha said (can't remember where) "She had wrapped her heart round being Aes Sedai".
I agree with the last line too. I want Moiraine back real quick!! She's been gone far too long! She, Siuan & Leane are the only Aes Sedai (Egwene, Nynaeve & Elayne don't count) who I don't regard as bitches. Alright, some may disagree about whether Siuan & Leane qualify as bitches, but I prefer them to all other Tar Valon witches. They're all arrogant know-it-alls. Recall the time in Lord of Chaos where Elayne & Siuan are showing some of them round Tel'aran'rhiod, & they were foolish enough to get sucked into a nightmare. I think Elayne & Siuan shouldn't have endangered themselves to save them. Just let the whores die!! They can always go back & tell the other Salidar sluts they couldn't do anything afterwards.

Originally posted by Jacob
I don't think that Rand and Egwene get's cold and hard in the same way, GWINNA. Okay, for one, I see more reason for Rand to get cold and hard. More need. And really, it's not the hardness as such that I mind in Egwene, not the strength. She's not one of RJ's best characters I think. Rand is hard and strong, but there is some differance there. I guess you could say that Rand is still sentimental while Egwene is not. Rand thinks of his past and remembers it even though he does his best not to show it in order to pretect his people. Egwene simply doesn't seem to care one bit about her past. She's becomeing that distant, aloof and manipulating part of the White Tower that's been the bad part of the tower. And she doesn't seem to have the slightest bit of consious about it, which Rand shows. And she has alot more reason in my mind. The "I know better" attitude is of course more than a bit annoying too. The Aes Sedei that she reprisents simply isn't a kind that I like. I also agree abit with the lack of growth and depth of her charecter. When I think of her, I am often minded of when a 5 y.o. girl tells you all grown uplike what should and should not be, knowing it all already.

No, the Aes Sedai that stands heads and shoulders higher than just about all the rest is still Moiraine. She was strong, no doubt about that. She could do seemingly cold things, but there was still a feeling that she _cared_ and I've never thought of her charecter as being bitchy. Neither did she have anywhere near as strong "I know best" streak, especially in the end. I want Moraine back!

[magatsu17]

I don't think I would like Elayne or Suian anymore if they could just sit there and watch they're friend's get eaten by Trollocs.
but Aes Sedai do need to be taken down a peg or two. I think Moraine said it best in her letter to Rand,"We have made the world dance and sing for Three Thousand years it's a difficult habit to break." Aes Sedai have always been the most powerful people in the world, and now their biggest fear, A man who can channel, is the only thing that can save them. I think they will adjust but they need to be given some time. I just can't wait to see how the world reacts to the clensed Saidin.

[balefire]

Originally posted by magatsu17
I don't think I would like Elayne or Suian anymore if they could just sit there and watch they're friend's get eaten by Trollocs.
but Aes Sedai do need to be taken down a peg or two. I think Moraine said it best in her letter to Rand,"We have made the world dance and sing for Three Thousand years it's a difficult habit to break." Aes Sedai have always been the most powerful people in the world, and now their biggest fear, A man who can channel, is the only thing that can save them. I think they will adjust but they need to be given some time. I just can't wait to see how the world reacts to the clensed Saidin.


Excuse me, did you say "friends"? I don't think the Salidar sluts count as "friends", in my opinion. They're just superiors, that's all. You know, the novice- Accepted- full Sister system. I HATE this rank system. Just think, Elayne is the very 1st chaneller to have made ter'angreal since the Breaking, & Nynaeve is the 1st to Heal stilling, not to mention their other achievements (alright, those "great discoveries" came from Moghedien, but it amounts to the same thing) & still the witches treat them like any other Accepted. Shouldn't they be granted higher status for their contributions? And those Ass Sedai fools just blunder around Tel'aran'rhiod, not paying heed to Elayne's warnings about the dangers there. And they still dare to put on that all-too-familiar know-it-all snobbishness. I don't think they deserve to be rescued from the nightmare for being such ass-brains. As someone once said (was it Amys?), "fools deserve what their foolishness brings them". Recall the time when Elayne had to teach those Sedai Sillies how to make ter'angreal, & she got so exasperated because "very few had the knack" & she couldn't tell them off for making stupid mistakes because they are Arse Sedai. (That Light-blinded rank system again!) I really sympathize with her situation. I would have been overjoyed if she & Siuan had left the vixens to die in the nightmare & all the other Ass Sedai could do is discover the bloody remains in their beds next morning. Too bad they didn't get raped by Myrddraal & then eaten by Trollocs. At least they got a taste of what it's like to be so ordinary, unable to channel. That should teach them not to think they're way above us common mortals. I HATE such superior-species attitudes.

[magatsu17]

Now I don't want you to think I like the attitude of Aes Sedai, because I don't. But just because of the things Elayne and Nyneve have done they were still accepted, and had to act like it. If you want to move up in any where in life you have to pay your dues first. Besides just look at the things Elayne and Nyneve have done when on their own. They where trapped in a cage sealed off from the source in Tear. The only way they even got away safe was cause of Mat. In Tanchico they survived on pure luck, and the help of Julian, Thom, and a Seachan woman. Then in Ghealdean Nyneve starts a war between the Whitecloaks and the Prophet's men. The only war they got out of that alive is Uno and the Sheinarians(sp?) Thom, Julian, Birgette, and Galad. Then in Ebou Dar the only reason they survived the fight with the Golem was Mat. I know that they have done pretty well, but they have also been very lucky. Like the time they got captured in book 3, and got rescued by Rhuarc, Aviendha, and the Aiel. That had to be pure luck. I know they did their own part in surviving these situations but I wish Elayne and Nyneve would come down a little off their high horse and recognize with out their friend and a lot of luck they would have been dead a long time ago.

[balefire]

Originally posted by magatsu17
Besides just look at the things Elayne and Nyneve have done when on their own. They where trapped in a cage sealed off from the source in Tear. The only way they even got away safe was cause of Mat. In Tanchico they survived on pure luck, and the help of Julian, Thom, and a Seachan woman. Then in Ghealdean Nyneve starts a war between the Whitecloaks and the Prophet's men. The only war they got out of that alive is Uno and the Sheinarians(sp?) Thom, Julian, Birgette, and Galad. Then in Ebou Dar the only reason they survived the fight with the Golem was Mat. I know that they have done pretty well, but they have also been very lucky. Like the time they got captured in book 3, and got rescued by Rhuarc, Aviendha, and the Aiel. That had to be pure luck. I know they did their own part in surviving these situations but I wish Elayne and Nyneve would come down a little off their high horse and recognize with out their friend and a lot of luck they would have been dead a long time ago.


Yes, I concede that Elayne & Nynaeve had their own moments of "I know what's going on & you don't", but they didn't go as far as those "real" Aes Sedai (Sheriam, Myrelle, Elaida etc..you know who I mean). I agree that they were being unfair & unkind to Mat after he rescued them in Tear but I can't say I'm too sorry because Mat does have a habit of barging into situations he knows nothing about & telling others what to do. Remember when he freed Egwene, Elayne & Nynaeve in Tear & they punched the Black sister (don't remember her name) who was guarding them? He tried to tell them off for this & that's why they suspended him with Air. He doesn't realize the bitch is a bloody Darkfriend & he makes comments about the punching.

If it makes you any happier let me point out other instances when Elayne & Nynaeve were wrong. Nynaeve still disliked that Seanchan woman Egeanin in spite of the fact that she's willing to be friends with marath'damane, which, she has been taught, are dangerous unless leashed to a'dam. Egeanin was able to put aside her prejudices, but Nynaeve, regrettably, couldn't: "She's Seanchan, Elayne! Seanchan!"

I'm not sure about this, but I think there was a time when Elayne & Nynaeve suspended Mat with Air while they searched his room for Siuan's letter of authority. That's a clear case of using the Power to get what you want, & personal rights can go to the Pit of Doom.

Also, Elayne tried to demand the foxhead medallion because she wanted to study it & "Some people believe all objects of the Power belong to the Tower." Fortunately Mat stood her down. After trying so hard to get away from Aes Sedai, & nearly dying to achieve this, they had to take away this protection from him. Even Rand recognizes the unfairness of this. Recall that he made Moiraine promise to leave the medallion with Mat. Elayne actually discussed with Egwene the idea of taking it by force via Warders, except that they realized that would make him very unwilling to obey their orders.

Originally posted by magatsu17
But just because of the things Elayne and Nyneve have done they were still accepted, and had to act like it. If you want to move up in any where in life you have to pay your dues first.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. What dues are they supposed to pay? They should have been raised to full Sister for their achievements in the Power. The fact that the weren't, & were still treated like, say that bitch Faolain (now that's another Ass Sedai-to-be I don't like) shows you that stupid rank system again. In any other situation, you get due recognition for your achievements & your rank increases eg in the corporate world you get promoted. But in the Aes Sedai hierarchy status & authority are absolute so Accepted are always lower than Aes Sedai no matter what. When I 1st read LoC where Elayne & Nynaeve were showing off their "great discoveries" to the Salidar sluts to raise their position in the stupid system, I was thinking, what a waste of effort. Their status would never increase, because of the stone-dead rank system, & they've revealed all sorts of techniques which they could have kept to themselves. Especially something as important as Travelling, making ter'angreal. If Elayne hadn't revealed that, or knowledge of Tel'aran'rhiod, she wouldn't be having such a hard time. As it turns out Elayne & Nynaeve got promoted when Egwene was raised to Amyrlin, so all that "great discoveries" thing was really wasted. Should've squeezed everything about Tel'aran'rhiod & the Power out of Moghedien, by Compulsion if necessary, then balefired her in the middle of the night somewhere in the forest so no one will discover any corpses. With knowledge from the Age of Legends, the Salidar witches will seem like real amateurs to them. And they can be secretly sniggering about it.